Letter writer Mr. Abramson calls me a hypocrite for classifying believers in Trump’s Big Lie about rigged election, dumb (Aug. 20 edition of the Daily Journal: “End the hypocrisy, Jorg”). What else can we call someone who believes the impossible — an election won against all evidence to the contrary? Actually, I don’t think there are many who really believe it, not even Trump himself. And why would a foreign adversary try to rig the election against Trump, who has shown himself to be so easy to manipulate? Instead, they are lying to support their cult leader, which we can classify as dishonesty, and for pointing it out, honesty, not hypocrisy. Check the meaning by consulting Miss Google, Scott!
What I mainly objected to in my letter to the editor (“Right is so wrong!,” Aug. 17 edition of the Daily Journal) is the lack of substance in many rebuttals, just empty nonsense and ad hominem. Like calling a very valid comment to an informative LTE that “(she) is just another know-nothing rabble-rouser who clearly has not studied history.” How inappropriate, degrading and, yes, unmanly. That’s even against the Be Nice part of this site’s guidelines.
Scott, while silly “blah-blahs” and personal derogatory remarks have been thrown around, instead of meaningful counterpoints, I only responded with factual, provable characteristics. Not meant personally, when I refer to the Trump cult as uninformed, misinformed, easily fooled, gullible and a threat to national security — it is embarrassingly obvious how true it is — especially for the vast and steadily increasing majority.
(27) comments
Jorg,
What are your thoughts on the 17th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution? Should state legislatures elect U.S. senators again?
https://www.archives.gov/legislative/features/17th-amendment
What does that have to do with the topic for this LTE? Instead, let me ask if you agree that someone believing Trump's Big Lie about the 2020 election was rigged against him, and that he actually won by a landslide, is ether stupid, or lying?
Jorg,
You frequently change the subject and since when did civil discourse become part of your responses?
Why would you ask me to speak about the thinking of others? How can anyone know if others are stupid or lying without knowing them or how they form an opinion? I would consider myself stupid if I did so. People can be wrong without being stupid or lying. Care to share your thoughts on the 17th?
Again, your question about the 17th has nothing to do with this LTE, while the question I asked is at the heart of it. Why don't you explain what other options there are, than stupidity or dishonesty, considering what we now know about Trump and his Big Lie? Try to prove me wrong when I say there aren't any other explanations.
Jorg,
I have already given you the obvious answer to your "options" question. People can be wrong without being stupid or lying. To assume otherwise is stupid. Do you care to share your opinion on the 17th?
OK, so you disagree with my position on the Big Lie. Fair enough, I appreciate that knowledge. On your 17th, I have no particular opinion, one way or another. What's your point, and what did you expect from me?
Good morning, Jorg
In your LTE, “Hypocrisy, honesty – or what?” published today, you take exception to Scott Abramson’s August 20 LTE, “End the hypocrisy, Jorg.” IMO it appears you may have missed the point of Scott’s letter. He is not arguing against your belief the former president propagated a lie about the 2020 election or led an insurrection on January 6, 2021. Scott finds it hypocritical that you called for civility in the DJ’s comments section, then a short time later, you are making some rather uncivil remarks about others.
Before going further… the word hypocrisy is very charged, and it is liberally used in these pages. Let’s set it aside for a while.
On July 28, in your LTE, “Disagree with grace,” you criticized inappropriate and degrading rhetoric. Yay! I saw that as a step forward, and I welcomed your suggestion, “Let’s upgrade to a more respectable and agreeable level, folks. OK?” However, twenty days later in your LTE, “Right is so wrong!” you are calling persons dishonest and stupid just because they disagree with your viewpoint.
As a result, on August 20, Scott Abramson calls out the inconsistency between your plea for civility last month and your use of uncivil language less than three weeks later. That’s probably why he remarked that you need to take some of your own advice.
One last item… you wrote today there is a “vast and steadily increasing majority” that agrees with your assessment of conservatives. Would that majority be the nearly three-quarters of Americans, reported by NBC this week, that believe our country is on the wrong track?
Ray: Who knows how valid your ¾ analogy may be. It may very well be that the ¾ you refer to, feel we are on the wrong track for a number of reasons, including the abortion issue, voter suppression, declining educational standards, Republican resistance against finding the truth behind the Jan. 6 insurrection, threats against election workers, police, FBI and IRS, just to mention a few. It is very understandable that the minority that voted for Trump may feel embarrassed, now that this lying crook gets worse by the day, whether they all are honest enough to admit it, or not. Even on this site, we have individuals clinging to false beliefs and hopes of a reborn Trump, rising from the grave, while I’m being attacked for calling out the dishonesty! What else can we call it? Stupidity? Naiveté? Perhaps you have a more fitting characteristic?
Jorg
Congrats and thanks... for responding to the question about the 74% of Americans who believe our country is on the wrong track. You offered several reasons why that may be the case, however, you did not include in your list the reasons identified by NBC. Miss Google can be a temptress, but in this case, she can easily help you check NBC's presentation of the 74% statistic on "Meet the Press" last Sunday.
1 in 5 Americans (21%) rank threats to our democracy as their most important issue. (Respondents from both sides of the aisle.) Almost one-third are most concerned about the financial crisis with 16% worried about the cost of living and 14% worried about jobs and the economy. NBC's poll numbers should not surprise us against a backdrop of about two-thirds (68%) of Americans thinking we are currently in a recession plus the president's low approval rating at 42%. Things can change between now and November 8 but registered voters gave Republicans a slight edge over Democrats with respect to which party those voters would prefer to take control of Congress.
But your LTE yesterday was about you taking issue with Scott Abramson's LTE published last Saturday. He called you out over the inconsistency between your plea in July for civility in this forum followed by your use of uncivil language this month directed at persons who do not share your partisan viewpoints. Nothing more, nothing less. Was he right?
Ray: This one has been watered down pretty well now, so let's just wait and see.
Hi, Jorg
"Watered down"? What does that mean? "Wait and see." For what?
Scott called out the inconsistency between your plea for civility on July 28 and your very uncivil commentary on August 17. Was he right?
Jorg... you ask if there is a more fitting characteristic to describe partisans (especially on the right side of the aisle).
When I look at the left side of aisle, I see some folks who believe fervently in their commitment to support a progressive agenda... but I don't think of them as dishonest or stupid. Further, I can disagree with the current administration progressive policies without insulting the folks who don't share my viewpoint.
The NBC poll also measured enthusiasm. The network found that while Republican voters have been routinely more enthusiastic about the upcoming election, Democrats have closed the gap. They are now neck and neck when it comes to this characteristic.
You and I can disagree with those on the right who believe the 2020 election was stolen, but we cannot deny they are committed and enthusiastic about their position on that issue... that does not make them dishonest and stupid. There are civil ways to disagree with their resoluteness and passion without calling them names.
Ray: What it boils down to, is that I think it is dishonest to defend the stolen election lie, if you don’t believe it, and stupid if you do. As simple as that. If you feel that is hypocritical, that’s your problem, not mine. Last word from me, for now.
Your last word may be described in this way... Same Stuff, Different Day (SS,DD).
Be better not bitter..better...
Hilarious. Wasn’t it a month ago when Jorg pled for a more respectable and agreeable level? And in the comments section of that letter, Jorg ignored his own plea? Now Jorg is trying to justify his ad hominem attacks. Hey Jorg, as soon as there’s evidence of you walking the walk to a more respectable and agreeable level, instead of talking the talk (and now trying to justify the talk), we may pay heed to your original plea and return the favor. As it is now, you’re only attempting to justify your hypocrisy and dishonesty, relegating us to business as usual.
TY: Exactly the usual unintended verification of my points we are so used to, but what took you so long this time? Had to think about it? Probably not, because if you did, you just might have understood what I wrote. Or, perhaps not. Just to clarify, calling for civility and comments that address the points made, do not mean that stupid responses should go unchallenged. Even the most hilarious ones should be called out once in a while, just as a reminder for those who have a hard time getting it, like guess-who?
Hi, Terence
While we disagree on some issues, we both follow a conservative bent... and we share something else. We have both been scorned... sometimes with impolite language... by today's letter writer. I feel there is no percentage in waiting for the writer to heed his own advice. IMO it is more persuasive to focus on positions and not personalities. A cogent, solid argument will be brushed away if it accompanies anything that smacks of an ad hominem response. My .02 cents...
Ray, I agree with your statement on positions over personalities (and kudos for keeping on keeping on). Unfortunately, we have some folks who focus on personalities because they don’t have a solid, or debatably, any, foundation on positions. As a writing study participant, I’m under certain guidelines and doing unto others as they have done unto me is fair game. Let’s see if I’m renewed at the SMDJ or I contribute at another media site. As for ad hominem responses, your two cents are valid. We should be better than that but there appears to be no cure for Trump Derangement Syndrome and for those afflicted, hate for Trump overcomes love for America. BTW, on other threads, I like your apropos SS, DD… responses and Wilfred’s response on the homeless in Alaska. I have to wonder why mayors in Alaska don’t give tickets to their homeless for Bay Area or Sacramento destinations. Much better weather... well, Sacramento is debatable during summer, but it’s a dry heat.
Hey, Terence
Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I believe we should keep the focus on positions instead of personalities. There might be times when a little snark sneaks into a comment, but there is no call for name calling and ad hominem commentary.
It's a stretch IMO for anyone to make a claim that their use of pejoratives accurately describes others with a different point of view, and that such insulting descriptions are factual and provable. Wow.
I can see that doing unto others as they have done to you makes sense to some folks, but when the name calling starts, we all have the power to say we will not use inappropriate and degrading language.
The DJ's guidelines for submitting comments says, "Be Nice." We can all do that. In the words of the Dalai Lama... "Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible."
Terence,
"... hate for Trump overcomes love for America." What you fail to understand is love for America is what fuels hate for Trump. The real world knows that Trump cares nothing about America, you, me, the little guy, his family etc. He cares about one thing and one thing only, Donald J Trump. If his own family doesn't praise him and feed his pocket with grifter monies he will throw them under the bus also. There is no telling how many secrets he has given to Valdimir to keep the Russians from calling his loans. The only thing you need to know about DJT is he doesn't like dogs and is the first president to not have a dog in the White House since McKinley was president, that's almost a hundred and twenty years. When he married his first wife, Ivana, she had a poodle named Chappy and she said she was bringing Chappy with her to New York and he said no. She told him it was her and Chappy or nothing so he caved in. The dog didn't like Trump either and would bark territorially whenever he went near her things, smart dog. I have told you before you are still welcome in the world of reality, you can even keep your DJT bobble head dolls!!
Terence,
I had an account with Facebook back in the days when it was in diapers. One of the groups I joined was against the government takeover of health care. Most of that group was made up of conservative people. I was suspected by some of those conservatives as not being a real conservative because I would say, I love my country more than I hate Obama. I have not yet uncovered the seed of that visceral disdain people have for others. Others they do not know except for what they are told by organizations not trusted by most people in this country. I am grateful you counter them. As for giving what you get, I'm in that camp as well so sign me up. However, I will not suffer self-identified geniuses (aka knuckleheads) nor will I argue with fellow patriots.
I have a theory about the homeless and mayors shipping them off to the Bay Area or Sacramento. Our courts would declare the culture shock caused by such a move as cruel and unusual punishment. 🤣
Three for one…
Ray, if only there were a definition of “nice” that everyone acknowledged, and followed. As it is these days, some folks have problems using and understanding the words, “vaccine,” “inflation reduction,” and “recession.” Let’s not forget the new doozy, “inflation reduction” as in Inflation Reduction Act.
Taffy, I’m sure the party of the KKK and Jim Crow laws, you know, Democrats, also use the rationale of loving America fueling their hate for, well, we know who they hate. And I’m sure all those dog lovers bitten or mauled by dogs would beg to differ on your generalization of the nature of dogs. Please, Taffy, if you have limited time on the computer, instead of resorting to orange man bad commentary and/or lame alternate reality comebacks, try to make a positive contribution. Perhaps you could enlighten us on what type of bread and cheese(s) make a grilled cheese sandwich, by itself, or in combination with tomato soup (canned or homemade). Aperitif? Digestif? Stay healthy, my friend.
Wilfred, nice theory, and I see your point, as have tens of thousands leaving the Bay Area. Of course, some of these Bay Area folks moved to Sacramento – quite possibly a lot of the homeless since I read somewhere that Sacramento now has more homeless (or is it home-challenged) folks than San Francisco. It'd be perfect if they set up in front of the State Capitol.
Terence,
For once you actually said something useful. Talk about food and libations rather than your usual Great Conman Trump. BTW when is he going to release his taxes he promised in 2016.
Hi, Terence
Yes, there can be disagreement on what words mean. The left's mangling of the language continues; it is meant to confuse, divide and distract. Failure to embrace the left's words du jour can invite a maelstrom of criticism and accusation.
However... at this point... I think everybody understands what "Be Nice" means. Do you agree?
Ray, for the sake of argument, let’s assume everyone understands what “Be Nice” means. However, as with many adjectives, “nice” is subjective in the eye of the beholder. For instance, if someone is cursing at me but laughing while doing so, I consider that being nice. If they’re cursing at me but not laughing, maybe not so nice, but still being nice. Now if they’re cursing while waving a weapon at me, not being nice. Happy eruption of Krakatoa day. Would global warming folks consider this eruption as a good thing since it lowered global temperatures, or not? A discussion for another day.
Terence...
It's simple IMO. It's not about whether someone is laughing or cursing or waving a firearm around. It's not about watching lava flow down the street. I think I can suggest a standard for the DJ's "Be Nice" guidelines that everyone can understand and apply to the comments section. Here it is. When your mother... oops, I mean birthing person... said to you, "Be nice," it pretty much meant be kind. So, it looks like we're right back to the Dalai Lama...
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