Bad Air Days & Barbeques

[Spare the Air]

It’s no wonder we have bad air days in the Bay Area and San Mateo in particular.

We have had two “Spare the Air” days this week. Poor air quality announcements have been widely advertised on radio, television, newspapers, the internet and even employee announcements at some companies.

Yet in my part of San Mateo, everybody’s cooking outside on their barbeques! On most warm days, late afternoon to early evening, the pungent smell of kerosene lays like a stagnant, heavily toxic haze in the air.

Outdoor cooking, (especially with charcoal barbeques), creates large amounts of toxic particulate pollution, and in many cases, more so than driving the average car to and from work…

Don’t get me wrong, I like to barbeque as much as the next guy, but limit my outdoor cooking to days when there is a good breeze.

It’s basic social responsibility and exercising a little common sense. On “Spare the Air” days, please don’t use your barbeque. Where possible, limit your driving.

Everyone’s collective health depends on it.

[fidelity]

PLEASE! it's Labor Day! I want my roasted wienies and chicken legs over an open grill. I want my potatoe salad, chips, soda, beer, fly old glory, hear all the kids in the neighborhood having a good time, and just enjoy my holiday weekend. If you really want to spare the air, stop lighting fires in your fireplaces in the middle of winter, so you can have "the effect" Stop going up the Sierras to your cabin and stagnate the air for the same reason. Fireplaces lit up in one neighborhood in San Mateo last winter made up more noxious emisions than a fleet of Hummers on thier way to the Gun Show at the Cow Palace. PLEASE don't take my ole smokey!

[jonvn]

Sorry, but I'm tired of being told what to do in every little aspect of my life.

If I want to cook outside, I will. If you don't like smog, tell Samtrans to stop using diesel buses.

Besides, it is almost always breezy in San Mateo. The smoke just blows over to San Leandro.

[Spare the Air]

Did you guys actually “read” my post?

1) I have not suggested we take your grill away or regulate their use.

2) I also like to barbecue. Just not on high pollution days… In fact, I plan to barbeque tomorrow.

3) I am STRONGLY suggesting that it would be socially responsible to not use your outdoor grill on the infrequent “Spare the Air” days during the Summer months. (I think we’ve only had only two Spare the Air days this Summer).

That’s it and nothing more.


Have a good 3-day weekend!


(P.S. I wholeheartedly agree with Fidelety's Winter wood smoke comments…)

[jonvn]

I don't think it makes the slightest bit of difference if I bbq on a spare the air day or not.

It's this sort of useless sort of thing that makes people ignore environmentalist ideas.

I don't think it is socially responsible or not responsible. It simply has no impact. We need to concentrate on things that actually do cause environmental issues rather than clamping down on people who are doing basically nothing to the overall air quality of the region.

[Spare the Air]

Your post above strikes me as the exact attitude that results in more air pollution.

It’s the position that “someone else” should "do something" to regulate industry/bus/train emmisions, as long as you don’t expect “ME” to do anything about it. “MY” little barbecue doesn’t contribute enough to make a difference.

That’s just plain BS. Let’s play a little “what-if” game.

Per the 2000 census, the city of San Mateo has 92,000 people. We can reasonably assume that in 2007, it’s 100,000. Also per the census, the average household is 2.3 people. (This number has been dropping).

I think we can reasonably assume that 1 of every 4 households own and use a barbecue. That’s almost 11,000 barbecues operating in an area of ONLY 12 square miles. BTW, it’s a FACT that your barbecue produces more toxic, particulate pollution than most vehicle trips.

NOW tell me it makes NO difference to air quality in San Mateo if YOU and 10,999 others use your grills on “Spare the Air” days… Perhaps it’s time for you to take some personal responsibility and get with the program.

It’s not like it’s a major inconvenience. After all, we’ve only had 2 Spare the Air days so far this whole Summer…

Regarding other large pollution sources, I agree that we need to push our city & state government to focus on these as well.

It's breezy today, so sincerely hope you enjoy your BBQ!

[Aion]

I mean very strange. I've only lived in SMC for a couple years now, but have been suprised at the air quality here, especially on the calmer days.

After reading the posts here, I am no longer suprised at all, it makes sense.

[jonvn]

Your post above strikes me as the exact attitude that results in more air pollution.

No. It's the attitude of people, who think that by not lighting up a BBQ that they are actually doing something to improve air quality, that results in more air pollution.

We need to get rid of large scale pollutants first. When we start actually doing something about low mileage cars that pollute, factories that pollute, and so on, then maybe the tiny bits of pollutants that BBQs cause could be addressed, if it turns out that they are any real contributor.

I think we can reasonably assume that 1 of every 4 households own and use a barbecue.

I think that assumption is not reasonable at all. What is the basis of this? And you're saying they are all used all the time? If so, that's also an unreasonable argument.

BTW, it’s a FACT that your barbecue produces more toxic, particulate pollution than most vehicle trips.

Perhaps it does. However, my one BBQ is not going to produce more pollution than the several million cars that are on the road each day, so it's basically a ridiculous assertion to say that by me not lighting a fire I'm somehow making the slightest dent in air pollution, because I would not be.

You want to clear the air on spare the air days? Ban cars from the road. That will clear up the air we breathe. But that's a bit more inconvenience than most people are willing to go through. So instead, we have created a pointless set of things such as no BBQs that do nothing but make people feel they are contributing to solve a problem when they are, in actuality, not doing squat.

It's breezy today, so sincerely hope you enjoy your BBQ!

I didn't use it. But in your honor tomorrow, I will go outside and burn some tires I have in my backyard.

[Spare the Air]

If everyone thinks as you do, then it "is" a problem. We can't shut down the freeways, airports or industry. Our local economy would collapse. We CAN as individuals, take action to not add to the problem.

While your "single" BBQ may not yield much pollution, your grill added to all the other 10,000+ BBQ's does constitute a major source of air pollution. The same logic applies to wood burning fireplaces in Winter.

Again, I'm only talking about a few "Spare the Air" days, not our typical summer days when there is a good breeze.

[jonvn]

If everyone thinks as you do, then it "is" a problem.

Well, no, it's not.

Because if everyone did think as I did then the real causes of pollution would be removed on those days.

What you expect to happen, that somehow the air will magically be cleaner because people do things that have basically no consequence as to the cause of the problem, is faulty.

For whatever number of BBQs there are, not everyone is going to operate theirs every night. But say there are 10,000. And if 10,000 people operated their BBQs on a spare the air day. And say oh a BBQ does two times the pollutants an average car does on a commute. Gee. That would account for the smog of 20,000 cars. How many millions of people commute each day? A quarter million on the Bay Bridge alone each day?

The number is miniscule in comparison. It has basically NO EFFECT. If 10% of the people using the Bay Bridge used public transit, you'd have an equal effect given the above scenario. Of course the numbers in the scenario are really not based on reality, either. But they are far more likely in line with what is actually happening rather than the idea of somehow a BBQ or a fireplace being responsible for worse air quality. Somehow the human race has managed to have BBQs and fireplaces for quite a while without having such unpleasant air quality. Suddenly, now that cars are rolling around by the millions we point our fingers at the fireplaces. It's senseless. If every single person followed along and did not use fireplaces or BBQs, we would still have bad air quality because those are not the causes nor the main contributors of it.

People need to stop thinking their useless gestures are actually accomplishing something, because this does not solve the problem. Unfortunately, the Bay Area seems to simply love their empty and useless gestures because it makes the people here feel good about themselves. This is such a common behavior that there is no real surprise that we have another one in the concept of not having BBQs to help clean up the air. But it does nothing to solve or even help the problem.

But you said so yourself. People don't want to do what actually will solve the problem. So the argument is moot. I'm just not interested in playing along with worthless feel good solutions that do nothing.

[Spare the Air]

You keep stating that individual actions don't matter...

And from your posts you obviously feel strongly that to effect any change, government needs to "do something" if change is to occur. Yet you also state you don't want anyone "telling you what to do".

I can only infer this means you advocate doing NOTHING to improve air quality. Yet you ARE clearly willing to throw stones at those who are...

I, at least, am trying to raise public awareness and trying thru collective individual actions mitigate a worsening situation. I've also contacted local and State govenment regarding our worsening air quality.

Please, give me YOUR solution. WHAT are YOU doing to improve life in our community?

Or are you just another anonymous online troll who gets his kicks criticizing the actions of others?

[jonvn]

I can only infer this means you advocate doing NOTHING to improve air quality.

No this is not correct. I don't want to be told what to do when it has absolutely no value.

raise public awareness

Another useless gesture. I think the public is well aware we have bad air quality.

trying thru collective individual actions mitigate

Your efforts account to basically zero.

give me YOUR solution

I already told you. If you want to actually clean up the air, you have to stop the things that are making it unclean. That would be to remove cars from the roadways, and factories to be closed. You don't want to do that? Fine. It's very harsh. However, not much short of that will do a bit of good.

just another anonymous online troll

Ah, well, here we are. You don't agree with me, so you figure it is now appropriate to start calling me names. First, I'm not the least bit anonymous, "spare the air." Secondly, if you don't like to be challenged in your faith of these PHONY efforts, welcome to the real world.

As to what am I doing to help our community? At the moment I'm trying to educate you in the fine art of learning to think critically. Put some thought into this. Work on making some real effort to do something that actually will have an impact. BBQs and fireplaces are not it.

Ban cars from freeways if they have less than 3 riders in them on spare the air days. That will start to clean up the air. You don't think it's possible? OK, then you simply have to accept the fact that the air is going to be dirty.

You live in a major metropolitan area. There are millions of cars putting out dirt into the atmosphere constantly. This includes people out there driving SUVs that get 12 MPG. Take your efforts and put them towards taxing these sorts of polluters. Make these vehicles basically unaffordable, because this is the main cause of the problem. High mileage, low polluting vehicles are the first and foremost place you should be concentrating. And even at that, expect it to take years, and be a tough fight.

Then you'll be doing something to solve the problem in an effective manner. I don't want to live with dirty air, either. But if you are going to expend effort in order to clean it up, do so in a manner that is actually going to accomplish something.

[Spare the Air]

You make some good points, though I don't entirely agree with some of them. That's OK.

I understand you don't think these efforts are valid. OK.

Clearly my calling you a troll hit a nerve. However, in response to my earlier posts you posted that you would:

a) "use your BBQ on a spare the air day".

b) "burn tires tonite" (illegal)

These are YOUR words, not mine. And they DO sound like "troll" postings. How would you expect me to react but to call you on it?

Now to the vaild points you made:

a) "BBQ's are not a major source of pollution". Compared to 1,000's of cars, Yes. The fact is they DO pollute, and their effect in my area of San Mateo is VERY noticable.

The point is: On infrequent bad air days, why make it worse? Individuals CAN choose not to contribute to the problem.

b) "remove cars from roadways & close factories" Yes, I agree that this would have the greatest effect. But none of us would have jobs, homes, food, etc. It's just not a practical solution.

c) "Car pools and taxes on low mileage vehicles". I'm all for it. In fact, that's exactly what I've suggested in e-mails to our State representatives.
It seems funny to me, as this seems to violate your not wanting more regulation... ie "being told what to do".

d) "concentrate on high milage vehicles" You got me on that one. It's not something I've lobbied for and is a good point.

OK, Given your responses, I reiterate my challenge to you. How do suggest we get there?

That is the REAL message of my last post. If you REALLY think I'm wasting my time. If you don't believe that individual actions count, how do we get taxes on SUV's? How do we reduce existing vehicle and factory pollution? How do we minimize air pollution in San Mateo city & county?

I'm talking about what YOU (or I) can do. NOT some nameless "somebody" or government office. Without a grassroots effort, nothing whill change.

So what are YOU willing to do. Are YOU willing to step-up and make YOUR voice heard?

If not...

If you are not interested in being part of the solution, how about a little support for those who ARE trying? What's the point in your continuing to undermine my efforts in urging others to minimize their individual contributions to air pollution. It may only have a small effect, but it does have an effect.

Enough said.

[jonvn]

Clearly my calling you a troll hit a nerve.

Calling me anything is inappropriate, period. How about if I started statements about you that are not pleasant? It's not hard, and several spring to mind. But it doesn't really do much for the conversation.

And they DO sound like "troll" postings.

I am not concerned with what I personally sound like to you. If you want a polite conversation, I suggest behaving politely.


The fact is they DO pollute, and their effect in my area of San Mateo is VERY noticable.

I did not say they didn't pollute. I did say the effect of their pollution is miniscule and of no real consequence compared to the millions of cars on the roads. You may say it has an impact on San Mateo, but I see nothing except your personal opinion to back that up.

The point is: On infrequent bad air days, why make it worse?

The point is: It has no real effect on the problem.

It's just not a practical solution.

Then you need to expend your efforts on coming up with one, because otherwise you are not doing anything to actually fix the problem. Telling people to not BBQ or light their fireplace does basically nothing to stop or even reduce poor air quality. Because even if everyone DID not light their BBQ, or their fireplace, the air would still be bad.

It seems funny to me, as this seems to violate your not wanting more regulation... ie "being told what to do".

You've already mentioned this, and I've already responded to it.

How do suggest we get there?

We live in a republic. Write your representatives, form a group, get yourself elected. You are not going to be able to, as an individual, get air quality cleaner. This is a very large infrastructure problem, and that is where the focus has to be.

The problem with well meaning people such as yourself is that they make efforts at things that are inconsequential. If you, and all others like you, who wish to have cleaner air got together, formed a PAC or some other such thing and got people elected to a position where they have more authority on such matters, then you can start effecting change. It is a long and difficult process, but that is what needs to be done. Otherwise, you are simply not doing a thing to help it. You really are not.

Without a grassroots effort, nothing whill change.

That's absolutely correct, but it has to be directed at the real causes of the problem, not scattershot, and not at feel good solutions.

What's the point in your continuing to undermine my efforts in urging others to minimize their individual contributions to air pollution.

Because these empty gestures are rather irritating and useless. I'm not undermining you. I am trying to tell you that if you want to solve a problem, you go after the cause of the problem directly, and not for ancillary issues that are of minimal consequence--if any.

[Aion]

In SMC, just outside RWC, is clearly, even obviosly, impacted where I live by BBQing on Spare the Air days. It only takes one or two people in a 4 block radius on certain calmer days to noticeably impact air quality for the worse.

Imagine if everyone with BBQ's, dead-set on excercising their "right" to BBQ, decided to spark-up.

California has some of the most stringent vehicle emmisions laws in place, significantly reducing airborn emmisions of unburnt fuel and almost entirely eliminating particulates from combustion.

The same can NOT be said for BBQ's, which do in fact emit unburnt fuel, particulates, and the ever present carbon monoxide.

SO live it up, BBQ your little hearts out on Spare the Air days. Eventually the EPA or some local interest will step-in and pass restrive ordinaces with fines and implement a county-paid staff to drive around looking for and responding to violation complaints.

Then you can sit around complaining some more about how "ineffective" attempts are to reduce particulate emmisions in populated areas, and how unfair it is that you can no longer BBQ whenever you want to, with zero regard for the health of your neighbors.

I have to laugh at these posts. My immigrant neighbors have a greater sense of social responsiblity than some of the posters here do - they display it with a simple ELECTRIC BBQ that sits in their back yard.


There are really no problems - just people who incessantly complain and refuse ANY solutions.

[jonvn]

The above post is exactly why we will never have clean air.

Someone can smell a BBQ or fireplace burning, and thinks that somehow it's ruining our air. It's an extremely miniscule amount compared to everything else being pumped into the atmosphere.

But ignoring the reality of millions of cars, we'll enact legislation that bans fireplaces or BBQs, which will do absolutely nothing to solve the problem, or even make it better. It will make some people they have accomplished something, though. It's great how that sort of thing always works.

California has some of the most stringent vehicle emmisions laws in place

So? Who cares if it's stringent. The cars STILL are the main source of pollution around here. You can ignore this, and go after ancillary issues that make you feel good, but it will do little. That BBQ you smell could get snuffed out, but 101 is pumping tons into your neighborhood and you seem to be OK with that.

My immigrant neighbors have a greater sense of social responsiblity

Let's find out about your social responsibility, as well as the social responsibility of others who want to put out BBQs. Do you have a car? Yes? Why? Why not take public transit? Oh, ok, inconvenient. What sort of car? An SUV? Nah, you're socially responsible. A low polluting vehicle? Well, I guess that's something. How much do you drive it? How far is your commute? What sort of heating system do you have for your house? How often do you use that? How many showers do you take a week? How is that water heated? What sorts of light bulbs do you have in your home?

And if you do use public transit, are you trying to get Caltrain and SamTrans to either electrify or use clean burning fuels?

I bet you don't. Most people don't. But they're perfectly happy telling me to put out a BBQ which:

A) Gives them a power trip.
B) Makes them think they are doing something.
C) Makes them think they are "socially responsible."
D) Accomplishes nothing.
E) Is hypocritical in the extreme.

Sure, tell me to stop doing the things I want, while you continue to put out far more pollution with your car and your home, and anything else you do than with a BBQ. Your efforts are a waste of time, and when you ban every fireplace, BBQ, and anything else you personally don't like other people to do, you'll find yourself with nearly the exact same air quality you started with, because you're not addressing the actual source of the problem.

How very Bay Area.

[jonvn]

OH, and by the way, I just looked up information on BBQs at http://www.sparetheair.org/about/tips.htm


Here is a tidbit:


9. It's OK to barbecue, but DON'T USE LIGHTER FLUID!
Lighter fluid literally goes up in smoke, causing a half-ton of smog each day in the Bay Area. Use an electric or a chimney briquette starter instead- you'll actually get a faster start.

But do you know what the top six items on that list involve? Telecommute, public transit, drive less, and so on. All auto related. Funny how that is.

So you have it right from the spare the air people themselves.

[Spare the Air]

jonvn,

You “cherry-picked” your quote on the BAAQMD website, and it does not represent the whole truth. That particular quote does NOT reference “Spare the Air” days. If you look further, the BAAQMD recommends you “Avoid Burning Anything” on Spare the Air days. That would include BBQ's.

I appreciate that you included the sentence: “Lighter fluid literally goes up in smoke, causing a half-ton of smog each day in the Bay Area”. It may be small compared to “big” pollution sources, but ½ ton each day is still a lot. Thanks for the support!

Rather than getting into a “quote war” with you, I encourage readers this post to check out the BAAQMD website. It’s full of good information on how Individual Action can improve our air quality… In fact, the page you referenced focuses on just that!
http://www.sparetheair.org/about/tips.htm

Lastly, “Aion”, (in the post above yours), is correct in his statement that lack of individual action to reduce pollution will lead to regulation. The BAAQMD is considering doing just what he described – regulating use of wood burning fireplaces in Winter, and BBQ’s in Summer on “Spare the Air” days, complete with hefty fines for violators. This was highlighted in an article in the SF Chronicle last Winter.

Here’s why: According to the article, Federal road funds for the County are tied, in part, to local air quality. Too many “bad air days” and the Feds begin withholding County road maintenance funding. If we have too many “bad air days” and road funding is curtailed, expect severe regulation to follow.

Personally, I welcome it. It would provide that “big brother” approach you keep saying is required. Further, fines will act as a deterrent to those who think that they need not be personally responsible for their polluting ways. Like using their BBQ on Spare the Air days, (or suggesting they will burn tires in my honor)… (the last part's a joke) - *grin*

[jonvn]

You “cherry-picked” your quote on the BAAQMD website

No. There is a list of hints and tips for spare the air days, that was item number 9 quoted in full, and I gave the context that could be looked up by supplying the exact location where the quote came from.

The title of the page is "The ten best ways to Spare the Air." To me, that then would imply that on a "Spare the air day," you would follow their tips on "the best ways to spare the air."

This seems rather obviously worded.

but ½ ton each day is still a lot.

That's lighter fluid. If you don't use lighter fluid, it doesn't happen. However, overall total air pollution in the area is about 600 tons per day. Therefore 1/2 ton acounts for approximately .08% of air pollution in the region. This is the actual number. As I said, it's simply miniscule, and attempting to curb this problem with this sort of effort is meaningless. Beyond that, they even say on their website that BBQs are perfectly fine. However, there is a site on wood burning that discusses it being a problem, chiefly due to the increased use of wood burning stoves.

http://www.baaqmd.gov/pio/wood_burning/

[Spare the Air]

jonvn,

I think this thread has served it purpose. While we may never agree, a number of people have followed these posts, brought the issue to light and been directed to the BAAQMD website.

For the record, I do understand and appreciate your perspective on this issue. You think effort is better spent working towards addressing the "big" pollution sources. Nothing wrong with that, though I think the "big" solutions will take years...

I happen to think individual efforts that yield small gains are equally valuable, as they can yield "immediate", if incremental / localized improvement in air quality.

Actually, through correspondence with Local, State & Federal officials, I'm working towards both solutions.

I have found it interesting that we are so highly polarized on this item. We typically agree on most issues... (although I don't always post on them).

Best Regards

[Aion]

doesn't impact air quality ?

You mean to tell me that you actually believe that burning charcoal, so long as you don't use lighter fluid, doesn't pollute ?


Yeah, right. Neither does buring garbage.

Way to discount all local air pollution, and defy simple physics.

[jonvn]

You mean to tell me that you actually believe that burning charcoal, so long as you don't use lighter fluid, doesn't pollute ?

As I have shown in the quoted material from the Spare the Air website, they don't have a problem with it. The lighter fluid contributes approximately .08% of our air pollution on hot days. Otherwise, there is so little dumped into the air from BBQs, they say go right ahead. They suggest using charcoal chimney starters and burning newspaper to start the BBQ instead of lighter fluid.

Go argue with them if you don't like it.

They do say that wood burning stoves and fireplaces contribute a good amount of particulate matter pollution on cold nights. Which is kind of an easy leap for them to say, since they are the main creators of this specific type of air pollution anyway.