Military Draft

[Nicola]

I support a draft, but not a Military Draft only. I support a National Service Obligation system that would draft all persons, at age 18, to serve for 18 months in some form of public service. In case of war, there will be a ready source of personnel to draw from. This service will introduce to young people the concept of public service, instill a sense of participation and accomplishment, and spread responsibility of service to country equally across the board.

[2smart4u]

I strongly oppose the draft. Any politician who supports it will lose my vote. It is unconstitutional.

[GHafez7]

I support a draft, but not a Military Draft only. I support a National Service Obligation system that would draft all persons, at age 18, to serve for 18 months in some form of public service. In case of war, there will be a ready source of personnel to draw from. This service will introduce to young people the concept of public service, instill a sense of participation and accomplishment, and spread responsibility of service to country equally across the board.


That's a great idea. When my dad was growing up in Europe he had two years compulsory military service. And my mom, in Egypt-yes Egypt, had compulsory military service as well.

[2smart4u]

That's a great idea. When my dad was growing up in Europe he had two years compulsory military service. And my mom, in Egypt-yes Egypt, had compulsory military service as well.

Yes, but America is a free country.

[GHafez7]

Yes, but America is a free country.

Europe was and is a free country as well. And just how long do you think we can stay free without a strong military? Qui vis pacem para bellum. It means, who wants peace, prepare for war. Which means, that if you want peace you must be prepared to fight the sometimes necessary fight for it. Subservience is no way to live....although San Francisco values would have you think that it is.

[jonvn]

Europe was and is a free country as well.

Europe isn't a country.

[Nicola]

Sounds like some of the respondents to my question feel freedom is free. Not so. Freedom requires discipline from each of us. Freedom without discipline is kaos. Remember JFK's words, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." My service to this country has paid me dividends in many ways and continues to this day.

[2smart4u]

Europe was and is a free country as well. And just how long do you think we can stay free without a strong military? Qui vis pacem para bellum. It means, who wants peace, prepare for war. Which means, that if you want peace you must be prepared to fight the sometimes necessary fight for it. Subservience is no way to live....although San Francisco values would have you think that it is.

"San Francisco values"? If only the rest of the country/world had San Francisco values!

The draft is unconstitutional. Period. If we didn't have idiots like Bush starting illegal and unnecessary wars, there wouldn't even be any talk of a draft.

[2smart4u]

Sounds like some of the respondents to my question feel freedom is free. Not so. Freedom requires discipline from each of us. Freedom without discipline is kaos. Remember JFK's words, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." My service to this country has paid me dividends in many ways and continues for a lifetime. A sense of having unselfishly contributed to the common good.

The draft is unconstitutional. Seriously, would you want yourself or your children into Bush's war?

[Nicola]

The draft is unconstitutional. Seriously, would you want yourself or your children into Bush's war?
No, I would not want to be in this war nor would I want my children in this war. We should be ashamed to fight any war with mercenaries, which our volunteer army is. The burden of war needs to be shared by all of us. If it was your butt getting drafted and sent to Iraq, you and your family, and your neighbor would be much more motivated to protest and stop the war.

[2smart4u]

No, I would not want to be in this war nor would I want my children in this war. We should be ashamed to fight any war with mercenaries, which our volunteer army is. The burden of war needs to be shared by all of us. If it was your butt getting drafted and sent to Iraq, you and your family, and your neighbor would be much more motivated to protest and stop the war.

So you want to reinstate the draft to get more people to protest the war? That's not very logical. What happens is, the rich people still don't go to war.

[Nicola]

So you want to reinstate the draft to get more people to protest the war? That's not very logical. What happens is, the rich people still don't go to war.
Where were you in the 60s?
You are 2smart4urongood or maybe just too young to know it all.
If one advocates war one should be ready to fight it with more than just words. This is my reasoning for advocating a policy that requires every person 18 yo to serve in some capacity for the good of the country. It's a great opportunity with many rewards, one being respect from your fellow citizens.

[2smart4u]

Where were you in the 60s?
You are 2smart4urongood or maybe just too young to know it all.
If one advocates war one should be ready to fight it with more than just words. This is my reasoning for advocating a policy that requires every person 18 yo to serve in some capacity for the good of the country. It's a great opportunity with many rewards, one being respect from your fellow citizens.

Rewards? Like death, dismemberment, disease, mental illness.

No thanks.

[Nicola]

Rewards? Like death, dismemberment, disease, mental illness.

No thanks.
Served my country. College education B.A. Degree, Insured loan for my first house, Free medical treatment at the VA. Not bad for a two year stint.
Would you be willing to do non-combat service for your country?

[Roscoe_Beedle]

I agree with Nicola. And military training is not all "death, dismemberment, disease, mental illness". That's a simpleton's answer to his/her own hatred for the military.

The armed forces has trained most all of our civilian pilots. Made "Men" of young males needing direction, has wonderful educational avenues, produces more nurses, doctors and specialists in all fields than can be found in any comparable organization throughout the US. Gee, the Internet was actually started within the military as a means to communicate (email).

And by the way, less people are killed in the military than on our public streets by a huge factor. Don't think so? Take a walk tonight about 1 AM in the Fruitvale District of Oakland.

[GHafez7]

[QUOTE=jonvn]Europe isn't a country.[/QUOTE

Oh no! The "smart" kid is in the group. Sorry smart kid....Europe used to be free countries. Happy?

[GHafez7]

So you want to reinstate the draft to get more people to protest the war? That's not very logical. What happens is, the rich people still don't go to war.

Actually...its the democrats you elected that want to reinstate the draft. Live it up for the next two years...when the country smartens up this country will see a conservative backlash like its never seen before. Its already beginning with the State Amendments to ban gay "marriage."

[jonvn]

Europe isn't a country.

Oh no! The "smart" kid is in the group. Sorry smart kid....Europe used to be free countries. Happy?


No, because Europe didn't "use to be free countries," either.

Are you really that slow that you don't know the difference between a continent and a country? Are you so bereft of historical knowledge that you don't even understand that half of Europe was not "free" until the 1980s? Before that, it was under Soviet domination?

So, even in your attempt to explain your ridiculous gaffe, you've made yet another dumb comment.

College education B.A. Degree, Insured loan for my first house, Free medical treatment at the VA. Not bad for a two year stint.

The military is not a savings plan, it is the military. And if everyone was forced into the military, this would be a huge expenditure for everyone in the nation. If ALL 18 year olds were given this, then what you are saying is that the government would be paying for all people to get a college degree, insured loans on their houses, and free medical treatment.

Not likely to happen.

And frankly, you need to start explaining what this country does that is so wonderful that you should be willing to go serve in the armed forces for. What do we have here that other countries do not? People seem to think that the United States is this great bastion of freedom and the rest of the world lives under tyranny. This is not true. They seem to think we have a great standard of living, while other countries live in relative squalor. This is also not true.

The conservatives around who are hoping for a backlash don't get it. There already has been a backlash, and people tossed the Republicans out of office. But considering that some people here don't even know that Europe is a continent, it is little wonder that they also don't understand much beyond what they are spoonfed by the likes of Rush Limbaugh.

[Nicola]

Please answer this question.
Do you think you owe your country a couple of years of service either military or non-military?

This free, uncensored interchange of opinions is the reward for supporting your country. You apparently never lived in a police state. It's easy to run your mouth off in this country, easy to be a refusenick. Even the young men facing the draft during the Vietnam war that ran to Canada were given full presidential pardon and allowed to return with no concequences except the personal regretts one might feel about having deserted his/her comrads.

[2smart4u]

Served my country. College education B.A. Degree, Insured loan for my first house, Free medical treatment at the VA. Not bad for a two year stint.
Would you be willing to do non-combat service for your country?

Not if I was forced to do it. That's something people need to be able to make a choice about. It's supposed to be a free country, after all. And if someone has a promising career, they're supposed to forego it for two years or whatever? I think not.

[2smart4u]

Actually...its the democrats you elected that want to reinstate the draft. Live it up for the next two years...when the country smartens up this country will see a conservative backlash like its never seen before. Its already beginning with the State Amendments to ban gay "marriage."

No, just one, last I checked. Just a ploy, I believe. The country has smartened up, which is why the Dems won two weeks ago. The Republicans have destroyed this country enough. Nice that you're a bigot, too.

[2smart4u]

Please answer this question.
Do you think you owe your country a couple of years of service either military or non-military?

This free, uncensored interchange of opinions is the reward for supporting your country. You apparently never lived in a police state. It's easy to run your mouth off in this country, easy to be a refusenick. Even the young men facing the draft during the Vietnam war that ran to Canada were given full presidential pardon and allowed to return with no concequences except the personal regretts one might feel about having deserted his/her comrads.

No. None at all.

[Nicola]

Sorry to hear this. You must then think the country owes you something. So should the S--t hit the fan I should not count on you to lift a finger? Hey, it's a free country, isn't it great?
But as the Bobster said, "Everybody's gotta serve somebody"

[2smart4u]

Sorry to hear this. You must then think the country owes you something. So should the S--t hit the fan I should not count on you to lift a finger? Hey, it's a free country, isn't it great?
But as the Bobster said, "Everybody's gotta serve somebody"

That will be MY decision. Not yours, not GW Bush's, nor anyone else's.
When did I say the country owed me anything?
Yes, it's a free country (not so much since Bush was selected, but mostly free). That IS great.

[Nicola]

That will be MY decision. Not yours, not GW Bush's, nor anyone else's.
When did I say the country owed me anything?
Yes, it's a free country (not so much since Bush was selected, but mostly free). That IS great.

Have you ever lived abroad? Have you ever been outside the United States?
Do you think that freedom is free? Tell me one freedom that you don't have. You have freedom of speech, free to travel almost anywhere, you don't have to report to a police agency every time you decide to move. The only thing you have to do is update your driver's license when moving to another state.
Do you vote? Did you vote in the Midterm elections?

[2smart4u]

Have you ever lived abroad? Have you ever been outside the United States?
Do you think that freedom is free? Tell me one freedom that you don't have. You have freedom of speech, free to travel almost anywhere, you don't have to report to a police agency every time you decide to move. The only thing you have to do is update your driver's license when moving to another state.
Do you vote? Did you vote in the Midterm elections?

Yes, I've been outside the US.
Freedom of speech isn't what it used to be, thanks to Bush. Our civil rights are being taken away right and left, thanks to Bush.
Of course I voted. Did you?

[Nicola]

Yes, I've been outside the US.
Freedom of speech isn't what it used to be, thanks to Bush. Our civil rights are being taken away right and left, thanks to Bush.
Of course I voted. Did you?
Yes. And this is what a free country offers you, to change the status quo by peaceful means. Is this not something one should be glad to have and support? This is why I promote a draft of 18 year olds, men and women to serve their country in any of many forms, one being military, others could be services to the poor, disadvantaged, disaster relief, mentor programs, care givers, and many more areas that would help the country in some way. Many free countries have this kind of service. It's not too much to ask is it? Wouldn't it feel great to actually help instead of just talk or complain. At 18 there is so much to learn about life. Get the kids off the street and give them alternative to living at home or in a ghetto or needing to belong to a gang. Become self sufficient at an early age, learn a trade or find an interest you didn't know you had. How old are you? You sound young.

[2smart4u]

Yes. And this is what a free country offers you, to change the status quo by peaceful means. Is this not something one should be glad to have and support? This is why I promote a draft of 18 year olds, men and women to serve their country in any of many forms, one being military, others could be services to the poor, disadvantaged, disaster relief, mentor programs, care givers, and many more areas that would help the country in some way. Many free countries have this kind of service. It's not too much to ask is it? Wouldn't it feel great to actually help instead of just talk or complain. At 18 there is so much to learn about life. Get the kids off the street and give them alternative to living at home or in a ghetto or needing to belong to a gang. Become self sufficient at an early age, learn a trade or find an interest you didn't know you had. How old are you? You sound young.

Problem is, if there was a president like Bush in office, you can bet your life that people who registered to give services to the poor would end up going to war. It is too much to ask. Do you really want thugs and street people providing these services? We have enough thugs in the military as it is.

[Nicola]

Problem is, if there was a president like Bush in office, you can bet your life that people who registered to give services to the poor would end up going to war. It is too much to ask. Do you really want thugs and street people providing these services? We have enough thugs in the military as it is.
Not so. Thugs are in the street. I've spent time in the military and went to war and felt quite secure and safe with my brothers in arms. Yes, in case of war you may be reassigned to a military position. In a war only one third of all troops are combat troops, the rest are support troops, behind the lines. You can be many things besides a grunt. I was a helicopter crew chief. I was lucky not to get hurt. But I will agree with you, Bush is a lawbreaking SOB. So was Johnson who sent me to Vietnam. These wars were totally unjust. When I came back I was out in the street protesting against the government. Unfortunately many of my countrymen and women blamed the soldiers for the war, as if we had a choice. But the people finally rallied to our cause and we forced Johnson out of office, Nixon was the next to fall. He (Nixon) was guillty of continuing the war sacrificing young lives for a war nobody believed in. Now it's Bush. But we voted, and he is now a lame duck and I predict we will be out of Iraq by the end of 07. If not, I'll be in the street again. Up for that?

[2smart4u]

Not so. Thugs are in the street. I've spent time in the military and went to war and felt quite secure and safe with my brothers in arms. Yes, in case of war you may be reassigned to a military position. In a war only one third of all troops are combat troops, the rest are support troops, behind the lines. You can be many things besides a grunt. I was a helicopter crew chief. I was lucky not to get hurt. But I will agree with you, Bush is a lawbreaking SOB. So was Johnson who sent me to Vietnam. These wars were totally unjust. When I came back I was out in the street protesting against the government. Unfortunately many of my countrymen and women blamed the soldiers for the war, as if we had a choice. But the people finally rallied to our cause and we forced Johnson out of office, Nixon was the next to fall. He (Nixon) was guillty of continuing the war sacrificing young lives for a war nobody believed in. Now it's Bush. But we voted, and he is now a lame duck and I predict we will be out of Iraq by the end of 07. If not, I'll be in the street again. Up for that?

Well, I can agree with much of that post. But I am still 100% against a draft, or any type of involuntary service. I am against the Selective Service, for that matter. Yes, Nixon used to be the worst president. Now it's Bush. Nixon continued a war for no good reason, and Bush started one for no good reason.

I'm sorry, but if we have a draft, too many thugs will be drafted. And there are plenty in the military now. I'm sure that you're aware that the military has lowered their standards for recruits, and surely you've read some of the many stories of rape, murder and torture by our troops in Iraq. Not the kind of people I would want to bunk with, let alone go to war with. Im not saying everyone in the military is a thug, gun nut, or whatever, but too many are for my liking. Now you'll probably say that's why we need a draft, to get more decent people in the military. I say we need our decent young people at home. Not getting killed in some far-off land for no good reason.

[GHafez7]

No, just one, last I checked. Just a ploy, I believe. The country has smartened up, which is why the Dems won two weeks ago. The Republicans have destroyed this country enough. Nice that you're a bigot, too.

Just because I oppose gay "marriage" does not make me a bigot. But if that makes you comfortable more power to you-whatever helps you sleep at night buddy. If you took notice of all the dems that were elected...they are all CONSERVATIVE democrats, not the liberal San Francisco breed of liberals. And even if its just one dem who threw out the draft idea...its still a dem that did so...did you hear any republicans throw out an idea for a draft? Go ahead...I challenge you to find one.

[2smart4u]

"Just because I oppose gay "marriage" does not make me a bigot."

Of course that makes you a bigot.

"If you took notice of all the dems that were elected...they are all CONSERVATIVE democrats"

Oxymoron.


"not the liberal San Francisco breed of liberals."

Try making sense.


" And even if its just one dem who threw out the draft idea...its still a dem that did so...did you hear any republicans throw out an idea for a draft? Go ahead...I challenge you to find one."

No, the Republicans are too busy lying, robbing the poor, molesting boys, and starting wars.

[Nicola]

"Just because I oppose gay "marriage" does not make me a bigot."

Of course that makes you a bigot.

"If you took notice of all the dems that were elected...they are all CONSERVATIVE democrats"

Oxymoron.


"not the liberal San Francisco breed of liberals."

Try making sense.


" And even if its just one dem who threw out the draft idea...its still a dem that did so...did you hear any republicans throw out an idea for a draft? Go ahead...I challenge you to find one."

No, the Republicans are too busy lying, robbing the poor, molesting boys, and starting wars.


Gay marriage puts a lot of people OFF. I can understand this and support marriage between man and woman. What I support is a civil contract between two people of any race, religion or gender to recieve equal treatment under the law, such as the right to adopt children, etc. The church has absolutely nothing to say about this. Their rules and laws are for those who freely accept and choose to practice their belief system. The religious community's stand to oppose gay unions in the political arena is unconstitutional.

[2smart4u]

Gay marriage puts a lot of people OFF. I can understand this and support marriage between man and woman. What I support is a civil contract between two people of any race, religion or gender to recieve equal treatment under the law, such as the right to adopt children, etc. The church has absolutely nothing to say about this. Their rules and laws are for those who freely accept and choose to practice their belief system. The religious community's stand to oppose gay unions in the political arena is unconstitutional.

Well, I can accept, if not necessaarily agree with, that.
Who says a "marriage" has to be religious? Mine wasn't.
But to say that two people who love each other can't get married just because they are gay is discrimination. Now, if a church doesn't want to perform gay marriages, that's their business. But the gays should be able to go to Vegas or a Justice of the Peace, or whatever, and get married, just like anyone else.
It's not like we heterosexuals have done such a great job with marriage.

[Nicola]

Well, I can accept, if not necessaarily agree with, that.
Who says a "marriage" has to be religious? Mine wasn't.
But to say that two people who love each other can't get married just because they are gay is discrimination. Now, if a church doesn't want to perform gay marriages, that's their business. But the gays should be able to go to Vegas or a Justice of the Peace, or whatever, and get married, just like anyone else.
It's not like we heterosexuals have done such a great job with marriage.

Good for you! What the world needs more of is tolerance, that's all. You don't have to love everything nor everybody, but a bit of tolerance goes a long way.

[GHafez7]

"Just because I oppose gay "marriage" does not make me a bigot."

Of course that makes you a bigot.

"If you took notice of all the dems that were elected...they are all CONSERVATIVE democrats"

Oxymoron.


"not the liberal San Francisco breed of liberals."

Try making sense.


" And even if its just one dem who threw out the draft idea...its still a dem that did so...did you hear any republicans throw out an idea for a draft? Go ahead...I challenge you to find one."

No, the Republicans are too busy lying, robbing the poor, molesting boys, and starting wars.

If you libel me one more time by calling me a bigot without any proof of such, the moderator of this board will be notified that you are harassing me.

Conservative democrats is not an oxymoron...please prove that it is.

What's not to make sense about "San Francisco liberals"? Its a very simple concept...its the type or liberal that resides in San Francisco.


And to your final point...there were two democrats convicted a few years ago of sexual misconduct with minors...did they have the class to resign? Nope. How do republicans rob the poor? Please I want an answer to this question. As to your other points...they are not worth the waste of energy.

[jonvn]

If you libel me one more time by calling me a bigot without any proof of such, the moderator of this board will be notified that you are harassing me.

Oh, that's a scary threat.

So tell me, if you make bigoted statements, how does that not make you a bigot?

[Nicola]

If you libel me one more time by calling me a bigot without any proof of such, the moderator of this board will be notified that you are harassing me.

Conservative democrats is not an oxymoron...please prove that it is.

What's not to make sense about "San Francisco liberals"? Its a very simple concept...its the type or liberal that resides in San Francisco.


And to your final point...there were two democrats convicted a few years ago of sexual misconduct with minors...did they have the class to resign? Nope. How do republicans rob the poor? Please I want an answer to this question. As to your other points...they are not worth the waste of energy.

Please boys, don't get angry. Don't make judgements, just voice your opinion. The more you push the more the resistance. It's a ZEN thing. If we can't find common ground in our woderful country, how can we expect people in the Middle East or anywhere else for that matter come to an agreement, even an agreement to disagree.

[2smart4u]

If you libel me one more time by calling me a bigot without any proof of such, the moderator of this board will be notified that you are harassing me.

Conservative democrats is not an oxymoron...please prove that it is.

What's not to make sense about "San Francisco liberals"? Its a very simple concept...its the type or liberal that resides in San Francisco.


And to your final point...there were two democrats convicted a few years ago of sexual misconduct with minors...did they have the class to resign? Nope. How do republicans rob the poor? Please I want an answer to this question. As to your other points...they are not worth the waste of energy.

I call them as I see them. Bigot: a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own. That's you.

Liberals are not conservative. It is indeed an oxymoron.

"The type or liberal that resides in San Francisco". Huh? Even if you meant "of", what is your point? How is a SF liberal different than one from anywhere else? We're all better and smarter than the neocons.

Your other points and questions are not worthy of my time. See? I can play that game, too.

[2smart4u]

Oh, that's a scary threat.

So tell me, if you make bigoted statements, how does that not make you a bigot?

Exactly.

Libel: A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation.

It's not false, as proven by his own comments, and how can you damage the reputation of an anonymous message board poster?

[2smart4u]

Oxymoron: conjoining contradictory terms (as in `deafening silence').

[Diamond Dog]

And here's another definition for our good ol' Fox News lover...

Moron: Someone who resorts to name calling (e.g. branding people they disagree with as "islamofascists" or "liberal," in an inpugning manner) instead have having any thoughtful discussion.




Oxymoron: conjoining contradictory terms (as in `deafening silence').

[GHafez7]

Exactly.

Libel: A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation.

It's not false, as proven by his own comments, and how can you damage the reputation of an anonymous message board poster?

I'm not a bigot because of my opposition to gay marriage. I'm not anti-gay only anti-gay marriage, there IS a difference. Now...your statement above is the pot calling the kettle black.

[Nicola]

I'm not a bigot because of my opposition to gay marriage. I'm not anti-gay only anti-gay marriage, there IS a difference. Now...your statement above is the pot calling the kettle black.

This discussion reminds me of Monty Python's Flying Circus performance of "Argument" Their's was funny.

[2smart4u]

I'm not a bigot because of my opposition to gay marriage. I'm not anti-gay only anti-gay marriage, there IS a difference. Now...your statement above is the pot calling the kettle black.

Yes, you are a bigot for being anti-gay marriage.
And which statement are you referring to?

[Roscoe_Beedle]

Bigot is just the wrong word.

[2smart4u]

Bigot is just the wrong word.

What word would you use? It seems like the best one to me.

[GHafez7]

Yes, you are a bigot for being anti-gay marriage.
And which statement are you referring to?

That being intolerant of other view points is being a bigot..well you are intolerant of my opposition to gay "marriage"...do the math.

[GHafez7]

Yes, you are a bigot for being anti-gay marriage.
And which statement are you referring to?

Being anti-gay "marriage" is not being a bigot. If I was anti-gay then yes, that would be being bigoted. But anti-gay "marriage" does not make me so...and I challenge you to prove that it is. I haven't said anything anti-gay nor have a said anything defamatory towards gays.

[2smart4u]

That being intolerant of other view points is being a bigot..well you are intolerant of my opposition to gay "marriage"...do the math.

Bigot: a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own.

I am not a prejudiced person. I am not a bigot. You are. I am not intolerant of your bigoted opposition to gay marriage. I merely pointed out that it makes you a bigot.

[2smart4u]

"Being anti-gay "marriage" is not being a bigot."

Of course it is. Explain how it could not be. You believe that one group of people has less right to get married than another.

That is extremely bigoted. Deal with it.

You have indeed said something anti-gay. You have said they shouldn't be able to get married. Do you think that's pro-gay?

[Nicola]

"Being anti-gay "marriage" is not being a bigot."

Of course it is. Explain how it could not be. You believe that one group of people has less right to get married than another.

That is extremely bigoted. Deal with it.

You have indeed said something anti-gay. You have said they shouldn't be able to get married. Do you think that's pro-gay?

Yo you guys are stuck in a rut. You are arguing about semantics. Let's use different language. Marriage for traditional contract between a man and a woman. Gayrriage (for lack of a better phrase) between persons of same sex. Both contracts include all the civil rights afforded to the traditional marriage. Tax status, child adoption, wills and testaments.
In my humble opinion, I see no argument against such an arragement. If there is a valid agrument, please reveal it to me. Now don't bore me with religious dogma or homophic rhetoric. Just keep in mind the constitution and the bill of rights when you take a side. If you just don't like the idea, then it is a personal like or dislike (I love red but hate yellow) and not a valid argument. Please don't invoke God into the discussion.

[Roscoe_Beedle]

This discussion of bigotry pertaining to gay marriage just does not cut it entirely. I find the timing of this discussion interesting as just last week Iran sentenced a homosexual man to death by stoning. That would qualify as a bigotry I think we would all agree..

Marriage has never been a right for anyone. It's a societal matter established by norms within a society. You can find large segments of the gay population that also don't favor gay marriage. They would be accused of similar bigotry? I know one father who has a gay son. He loves him. He knows his son's chosen one. He speaks well of his son. But this father does not favor gay marriage. To call him a bigot does not do justice to him other than to further an argument. Tolerance comes in many forms.

I have no problem to legal agments affirming relationships with all the rights extended to married persons. Something that could travel out of State bounds.

Having raised three children as a single father, a widower, I know that I did not do everything I could have as an intact family unit. I favor the man-woman design for children and as such tend to be in favor of this form of family. However I can also see the exceptions to this and do not condemn a gay family simply because it is headed by two homosexuals. No one group has a monopoly on Love.

This matter will not be solved by those charging bigotry or intolerance. It will be settled over time as norms either accept the arrangements or don't accept them. Even the gay community is not universal on the topic. I read an article about the time that San Fran was issuing licenses. It seems the Lesbien Community was generally in favor of marriage but the gay men segment was not. Tells me this is not a settled issue that we can start calling out BIGOT to further a personal view.

Time will tell. Most likely after mine is up.

[2smart4u]

This discussion of bigotry pertaining to gay marriage just does not cut it entirely. I find the timing of this discussion interesting as just last week Iran sentenced a homosexual man to death by stoning. That would qualify as a bigotry I think we would all agree..

Marriage has never been a right for anyone. It's a societal matter established by norms within a society. You can find large segments of the gay population that also don't favor gay marriage. They would be accused of similar bigotry? I know one father who has a gay son. He loves him. He knows his son's chosen one. He speaks well of his son. But this father does not favor gay marriage. To call him a bigot does not do justice to him other than to further an argument. Tolerance comes in many forms.

I have no problem to legal agments affirming relationships with all the rights extended to married persons. Something that could travel out of State bounds.

Having raised three children as a single father, a widower, I know that I did not do everything I could have as an intact family unit. I favor the man-woman design for children and as such tend to be in favor of this form of family. However I can also see the exceptions to this and do not condemn a gay family simply because it is headed by two homosexuals. No one group has a monopoly on Love.

This matter will not be solved by those charging bigotry or intolerance. It will be settled over time as norms either accept the arrangements or don't accept them. Even the gay community is not universal on the topic. I read an article about the time that San Fran was issuing licenses. It seems the Lesbien Community was generally in favor of marriage but the gay men segment was not. Tells me this is not a settled issue that we can start calling out BIGOT to further a personal view.

Time will tell. Most likely after mine is up.

You're entitled to your opinion. To me, it is bigotry, including in the examples you mention, and also if you call gay marriage anything but "marriage".
Not that I really care. I'm heterosexual, but I believe in equal rights for all. What if they wanted to call two African Americans getting wedded a "blackage"?

[Nicola]

This discussion of bigotry pertaining to gay marriage just does not cut it entirely. I find the timing of this discussion interesting as just last week Iran sentenced a homosexual man to death by stoning. That would qualify as a bigotry I think we would all agree..

Marriage has never been a right for anyone. It's a societal matter established by norms within a society. You can find large segments of the gay population that also don't favor gay marriage. They would be accused of similar bigotry? I know one father who has a gay son. He loves him. He knows his son's chosen one. He speaks well of his son. But this father does not favor gay marriage. To call him a bigot does not do justice to him other than to further an argument. Tolerance comes in many forms.

I have no problem to legal agments affirming relationships with all the rights extended to married persons. Something that could travel out of State bounds.

Having raised three children as a single father, a widower, I know that I did not do everything I could have as an intact family unit. I favor the man-woman design for children and as such tend to be in favor of this form of family. However I can also see the exceptions to this and do not condemn a gay family simply because it is headed by two homosexuals. No one group has a monopoly on Love.

This matter will not be solved by those charging bigotry or intolerance. It will be settled over time as norms either accept the arrangements or don't accept them. Even the gay community is not universal on the topic. I read an article about the time that San Fran was issuing licenses. It seems the Lesbien Community was generally in favor of marriage but the gay men segment was not. Tells me this is not a settled issue that we can start calling out BIGOT to further a personal view.

Time will tell. Most likely after mine is up.

I agree that many gay men don't care about marriage. They only care about legal aspects such as naming their lover as heir to their belongings. I've heard of a case where the lover was evicted from the house his lover left him in his will because the family contested the will and the parents of the deceased won the case. I'm concerned about equality.

[Roscoe_Beedle]

2smart4u wrote:
What if they wanted to call two African Americans getting wedded a "blackage"?

We don't we call it "Marriage"

Incidently, black churches have led the battle against gay marriages. A black church group was one of two groups that protested the recent SF marriage ceremony.

[Nicola]

2smart4u wrote:
What if they wanted to call two African Americans getting wedded a "blackage"?

We don't we call it "Marriage"

Incidently, black churches have led the battle against gay marriages. A black church group was one of two groups that protested the recent SF marriage ceremony.

What the hell does black have to do with anything?

[GHafez7]

What the hell does black have to do with anything?

2smart is trying to be clever by trying to equate black marriage with gay "marriage." This is a typical tactic, in trying to equate the fight for gay "marriage" with civil rights. In actuality there are very many civil rights advocates who are opposed to equating their fight for civil rights with the fight for gay "marriage." You see, what people don't understand is that marriage isn't technically a right. If marriage was a right, people wouldn't have to obtain a marriage license and register with the county. If marriages was a right, people could marry whenever they wanted, but in actuality marriage is regulated in order to ensure that brothers aren't marrying sisters and fathers aren't marrying daughters. But, should gay "marriage" pass, then other alternative life styles, such as polygamy, could have legal recourse under the equal protection clause in the constitution to demand that their "marriages" be legally recognized as well.

[Nicola]

2smart is trying to be clever by trying to equate black marriage with gay "marriage." This is a typical tactic, in trying to equate the fight for gay "marriage" with civil rights. In actuality there are very many civil rights advocates who are opposed to equating their fight for civil rights with the fight for gay "marriage." You see, what people don't understand is that marriage isn't technically a right. If marriage was a right, people wouldn't have to obtain a marriage license and register with the county. If marriages was a right, people could marry whenever they wanted, but in actuality marriage is regulated in order to ensure that brothers aren't marrying sisters and fathers aren't marrying daughters. But, should gay "marriage" pass, then other alternative life styles, such as polygamy, could have legal recourse under the equal protection clause in the constitution to demand that their "marriages" be legally recognized as well.
You make a very good point. Mariage should retain it's status as it has been for centuries. You must admit, if straight people and the church would respect people there would not be an issue about same sex anything. Gay people have been subjected to some rather extreme hostility and have been murdered for their sexual orientation. It seems to be a normal occurrence in nature that a small percentage of humans are gay, and they should not have to live in fear of their fellow man.

[2smart4u]

2smart4u wrote:
What if they wanted to call two African Americans getting wedded a "blackage"?

We don't we call it "Marriage"

Incidently, black churches have led the battle against gay marriages. A black church group was one of two groups that protested the recent SF marriage ceremony.

What DO you call it? This should be interesting.

[2smart4u]

What the hell does black have to do with anything?

You referred to gay marriage as "gayrriage" or some such nonsense. You claim that is not bigotry. So I said would you call a black marriage "blackage"?

Sorry, I thought it was a simple concept.

[2smart4u]

2smart is trying to be clever by trying to equate black marriage with gay "marriage." This is a typical tactic, in trying to equate the fight for gay "marriage" with civil rights. In actuality there are very many civil rights advocates who are opposed to equating their fight for civil rights with the fight for gay "marriage." You see, what people don't understand is that marriage isn't technically a right. If marriage was a right, people wouldn't have to obtain a marriage license and register with the county. If marriages was a right, people could marry whenever they wanted, but in actuality marriage is regulated in order to ensure that brothers aren't marrying sisters and fathers aren't marrying daughters. But, should gay "marriage" pass, then other alternative life styles, such as polygamy, could have legal recourse under the equal protection clause in the constitution to demand that their "marriages" be legally recognized as well.

As usual, you are wrong. Getting a job isn't necessarily a right, but try to deny a job to a qualified minority and see what happens. Your polygamy
is a typical tactic used by bigots who don't believe in equal rights for all.

You'll have to do much better to be taken seriously.

[2smart4u]

You make a very good point. Mariage should retain it's status as it has been for centuries. You must admit, if straight people and the church would respect people there would not be an issue about same sex anything. Gay people have been subjected to some rather extreme hostility and have been murdered for their sexual orientation. It seems to be a normal occurrence in nature that a small percentage of humans are gay, and they should not have to live in fear of their fellow man.

...but they shouldn't expect to be treated the same...?
Wow, that makes no sense at all.

[2smart4u]

Here's a question...
Are you all for gays in the military? If not, you can't have a draft. Because gays will get drafted, too. And if they don't allow gays, a lot more people will suddenly become gay, if there's a draft.

[GHafez7]

As usual, you are wrong. Getting a job isn't necessarily a right, but try to deny a job to a qualified minority and see what happens. Your polygamy
is a typical tactic used by bigots who don't believe in equal rights for all.

You'll have to do much better to be taken seriously.

I did not say anything incorrect and you sound a touch on the defensive and angry side. A job isn't a right, you are correct, but it IS a necessity if you want a home, food, etc. Marriage is not a necessity in order to survive. And by the way, the polygamy angle is not incorrect...there's already a group of polygamists suing to be allowed to "marry" if gays are allowed to "marry." Oh well...quite a few states have already amended their Constitutions to stop this slippery slop from taking place. :-) Oh and don't worry too much about me loosing sleep over you not taking me seriously...you on the other hand seem to be very preoccupied by my opinions..I'm quite flattered.

[2smart4u]

I did not say anything incorrect and you sound a touch on the defensive and angry side. A job isn't a right, you are correct, but it IS a necessity if you want a home, food, etc. Marriage is not a necessity in order to survive. And by the way, the polygamy angle is not incorrect...there's already a group of polygamists suing to be allowed to "marry" if gays are allowed to "marry." Oh well...quite a few states have already amended their Constitutions to stop this slippery slop from taking place. :-) Oh and don't worry too much about me loosing sleep over you not taking me seriously...you on the other hand seem to be very preoccupied by my opinions..I'm quite flattered.

Yes, almost everything you say is incorrect. I'm not defensive or angry at all, unlike you. The polygamy thing is a joke. I believe there are laws against that. A job was just the first thing that came to mind. You failed to get the point, as usual. "Slippery slop"? What is that, your dinner? Another thing that will keep anyone from taking you seriously is your very poor spelling. Your opinions are ignorant. No one is doing anything but laughing at you.

[Nicola]

I did not say anything incorrect and you sound a touch on the defensive and angry side. A job isn't a right, you are correct, but it IS a necessity if you want a home, food, etc. Marriage is not a necessity in order to survive. And by the way, the polygamy angle is not incorrect...there's already a group of polygamists suing to be allowed to "marry" if gays are allowed to "marry." Oh well...quite a few states have already amended their Constitutions to stop this slippery slop from taking place. :-) Oh and don't worry too much about me loosing sleep over you not taking me seriously...you on the other hand seem to be very preoccupied by my opinions..I'm quite flattered.

It is very difficult to fool the Army about being gay. Many I'm sure have tried that in the sixties and failed. I never had any trouble with gays in the military. I slept next to one for a year in a tent in Vietnam. We were great friends. Gay has nothing to do with anything. It's all about civil rights. Don't get hung up on the marriage stuff, it's a red herring the religious right likes to toss out hoping to scare people. Many times it's those advocates (the most vocal and angry ones with great insecurities in their own sexuality) who get caught in their own doodoo.

[Roscoe_Beedle]

What some people won't comprehend is that the military is basically a culture. You have very young recruits between the age of 18-22 making up the bulk of this culture. These recruits are forced to live together, eat together shower together, really everything. It is these same recruits that are opposed to gays in their ranks.

What to do? Satisfy the bean counters and create some real problems not suited for a disciplined rank and file? In the real world you have to consider the affects of your decisions. Social experiments do not make good policy when you are training a fighting force.

Further it is apparent 2smart4u has no understanding or care for the armed forces. So why play this game? The military knows what they want and what they need. That satisfies me.

[2smart4u]

A job isn't a right, you are correct, but it IS a necessity if you want a home, food, etc. Marriage is not a necessity in order to survive.

A necessity is not a right. Try again.

[GHafez7]

Yes, almost everything you say is incorrect. I'm not defensive or angry at all, unlike you. The polygamy thing is a joke. I believe there are laws against that. A job was just the first thing that came to mind. You failed to get the point, as usual. "Slippery slop"? What is that, your dinner? Another thing that will keep anyone from taking you seriously is your very poor spelling. Your opinions are ignorant. No one is doing anything but laughing at you.

Admit it...you are pretty angry...it comes with being a LIEberal. Yes, we know... you are "2smart4"us but we're onto your ilk. Uwww, and look now that you KNOW for a FACT that your arguments are wrong, you resort to correcting people's grammar on the internet...you sure are "2smart." I think they are laughing at you and your...reverence for my arguments that you have yet to disprove. By the way, if the polygamy thing was a joke, you didn't address the lawsuit being brought on by polygamists because gays want the right to marry, they do as well. Facts seem to slip by you. Thanks for your idolization. :-)

[GHafez7]

A necessity is not a right. Try again.

I never said a necessity was a right, don't misquote me.

Ever greatful for your idolization of me. :-)

[2smart4u]

I never said a necessity was a right, don't misquote me.

Ever greatful for your idolization of me. :-)

Well, that renders your "job" argument null and void.

I wouldn't idolize you, even if you could spell.

[2smart4u]

Admit it...you are pretty angry...it comes with being a LIEberal. Yes, we know... you are "2smart4"us but we're onto your ilk. Uwww, and look now that you KNOW for a FACT that your arguments are wrong, you resort to correcting people's grammar on the internet...you sure are "2smart." I think they are laughing at you and your...reverence for my arguments that you have yet to disprove. By the way, if the polygamy thing was a joke, you didn't address the lawsuit being brought on by polygamists because gays want the right to marry, they do as well. Facts seem to slip by you. Thanks for your idolization. :-)

What is a "lieberal"? Learn to spell!!! What have I got to be angry about? If I was you, I might be angry, because apparently your parents didn't raise you right.

None of my arguments are wrong. Try again, bucko.

I have disproven everything you have said. We are all laughing at you. You are pitiful, ignorant , and bigoted.

What fact slipped by me? My response apparently went way over your head.

You'll never be me, even if you go back to school, so stop trying.

[GHafez7]

What is a "lieberal"? Learn to spell!!! What have I got to be angry about? If I was you, I might be angry, because apparently your parents didn't raise you right.

None of my arguments are wrong. Try again, bucko.

I have disproven everything you have said. We are all laughing at you. You are pitiful, ignorant , and bigoted.

What fact slipped by me? My response apparently went way over your head.

You'll never be me, even if you go back to school, so stop trying.

You know very well what a LIEberal is. All your arguments are wrong...that's why you get so angry when I counter all your OPINIONS with facts. Listen...you need to stop thinking that your OPINIONS are facts...they are not. Oh...and just so you know...my parent's raised me with MORALS...REAL MORALS...not this moral "relativism" b.s that LIEberals believe in. And again...being against gay marriage does not make me a bigot. In fact...YOU are the bigot because you are nt tolerant of my thoughts, ideas and beliefs. You my friend, are the examplar LIEberals. But again...THANK YOU for idolizing me...it seems like I'm such a preoccupation with you. Thank you...its flattering...quite flattering indeed.

[2smart4u]

"You know very well what a LIEberal is."

No, never heard of it.

"All your arguments are wrong"

Talking to yourself again?


"...that's why you get so angry when I counter all your OPINIONS with facts."

Fact: You have never made me angry. Fact: You have never countered my opinion with anything but ignorance. Fact: You have never countered my facts with anything but your ignorant opinions.


" Listen...you need to stop thinking that your OPINIONS are facts"

Yes, you do.


"Oh...and just so you know...my parent's raised me with MORALS...REAL MORALS"

They should have spent more time teaching you to spell and use proper grammar, and not to be such an ignorant bigot. Exactly what "morals" do you have? This ought to be funny. And again...being against gay marriage does indeed make you a bigot. But again...THANK YOU for worshipping me. It's a bit scary, but what can I do about it?

[Nicola]

hey guys, why not take this into the street. Let's have some interesting dialog and stop wasting time and space with nothing but bickering.
I started this question about Military draft. Let's get back to that.

[2smart4u]

hey guys, why not take this into the street. Let's have some interesting dialog and stop wasting time and space with nothing but bickering.
I started this question about Military draft. Let's get back to that.

Ok. I'm against it. It is unconstitutional. I'm also against the Selective service and recruiting on campuses.

[Roscoe_Beedle]

A Military draft is "unconstitutional"? Since when? Congress does have the powers to call for a draft into the military of eligible citizens. How is that in itself unconstitutional? I am asking here. I am also against a 'draft' at this time.

[GHafez7]

"You know very well what a LIEberal is."

No, never heard of it.

"All your arguments are wrong"

Talking to yourself again?


"...that's why you get so angry when I counter all your OPINIONS with facts."

Fact: You have never made me angry. Fact: You have never countered my opinion with anything but ignorance. Fact: You have never countered my facts with anything but your ignorant opinions.


" Listen...you need to stop thinking that your OPINIONS are facts"

Yes, you do.


"Oh...and just so you know...my parent's raised me with MORALS...REAL MORALS"

They should have spent more time teaching you to spell and use proper grammar, and not to be such an ignorant bigot. Exactly what "morals" do you have? This ought to be funny. And again...being against gay marriage does indeed make you a bigot. But again...THANK YOU for worshipping me. It's a bit scary, but what can I do about it?


AHAHAHAHAHAH....you think I'm worshipping me after I've been using the same routine on you?! They say that imitation is the highest form of flattery...now you REALLY have proved that you do idolize me!

[2smart4u]

AHAHAHAHAHAH....you think I'm worshipping me after I've been using the same routine on you?! They say that imitation is the highest form of flattery...now you REALLY have proved that you do idolize me!

Yes, you probably do worship yourself. No one else would. You are scared of me. Either that, or you have developed a crush on me.

[2smart4u]

A Military draft is "unconstitutional"? Since when? Congress does have the powers to call for a draft into the military of eligible citizens. How is that in itself unconstitutional? I am asking here. I am also against a 'draft' at this time.

It's unconstitutional. Period. Always has been.

[Roscoe_Beedle]

You just outed yourself. Your credibility that is.

[Nicola]

Don't any of you believe you owe some sort of service, military or non-military, to your country? The freedom you enjoy was paid up front for you in two world wars. 2 years of public service when you reach 18, a refreshing glimps into real life, after 12 years of public school.

[2smart4u]

You just outed yourself. Your credibility that is.

My credibility is gay???

I can't remember the exact words, but one cannot be forced to fight a war they don't believe in.

And there's always that "involuntary servitude" amendment.

[2smart4u]

Don't any of you believe you owe some sort of service, military or non-military, to your country? The freedom you enjoy was paid up front for you in two world wars. 2 years of public service when you reach 18, a refreshing glimps into real life, after 12 years of public school.

I've already answered that. No, I don't. I pay taxes. My body and my life are my own.

[Roscoe_Beedle]

Your statement that the Draft is unconstitutional is flat wrong. A glaring error. You can, as a matter of conscience, challenge your own staus as draftable. But this in no way creates an unconstitutional status of the draft.

But by your own statements we can see why a draft except in extreme National Emergencies are problematic. Whether it be for the cowards, the misfits, the physically challenged, or the "I want to pick my war types", all of these make crappy troops. And we don't need these people along side brave men and women who are committed to serving their Country honorably and bravely.
Try the "involuntary servitude" argument with the Supreme Court.

[2smart4u]

Your statement that the Draft is unconstitutional is flat wrong. A glaring error. You can, as a matter of conscience, challenge your own staus as draftable. But this in no way creates an unconstitutional status of the draft.

But by your own statements we can see why a draft except in extreme National Emergencies are problematic. Whether it be for the cowards, the misfits, the physically challenged, or the "I want to pick my war types", all of these make crappy troops. And we don't need these people along side brave men and women who are committed to serving their Country honorably and bravely.
Try the "involuntary servitude" argument with the Supreme Court.

Who died and left YOU in charge? Forcing someone to serve in a war they don't believe in is about as unconstitutional as it gets.

You get crappy troops no matter whether you have a draft or a volunteer military. We certainly have enough misfits, mentally challenged, and criminal-minded troops now.

I commend those who have gone AWOL from this illegal, senseless, lost war.

[GHafez7]

Yes, you probably do worship yourself. No one else would. You are scared of me. Either that, or you have developed a crush on me.

Hey, my three year old nephew uses those same tactics! Trying to turn it around on me when I say "you did this or you did that." That says a lot about your level of "intelligence."

[GHafez7]

Don't any of you believe you owe some sort of service, military or non-military, to your country? The freedom you enjoy was paid up front for you in two world wars. 2 years of public service when you reach 18, a refreshing glimps into real life, after 12 years of public school.

Absolutely we do. Our country has given us so much. We have one of the best economies in the world, one of the lowest levels of unemployment, a strong Constitution and the list goes on and on. A draft would not be such a bad thing. It might toughen up these kids today. All they are being taught is that they don't have to be responsible for their own actions and that the government should take care of everything for them. Its sickening and it will lead to our downfall.

[Roscoe_Beedle]

And not one person has ever won on constitutional grounds because they have opposed a war. Not the Civil War, the two World Wars, Korea or Vietnam. Your statement is based solely on emotion.

Millions of men drafted and no one has prevailed constitutionally to not serve. But you say it is so.

Many have been exempted from fighting due to a "Conscientious Objection" status. But they were required to serve their mandated term. By the way, it is doubly difficult to be granted a Conscientious Objection status when one volunteers for service than it is when one is drafted.

[Roscoe_Beedle]

I support Nicola's position. Some type of national service, not necessarily military, is a valid position.

[2smart4u]

Hey, my three year old nephew uses those same tactics! Trying to turn it around on me when I say "you did this or you did that." That says a lot about your level of "intelligence."

Yes, it shows that I am FAR supreior to you when it comes to intelligence.

[2smart4u]

Absolutely we do. Our country has given us so much. We have one of the best economies in the world, one of the lowest levels of unemployment, a strong Constitution and the list goes on and on. A draft would not be such a bad thing. It might toughen up these kids today. All they are being taught is that they don't have to be responsible for their own actions and that the government should take care of everything for them. Its sickening and it will lead to our downfall.

The economy has been crap since Bush was selected, unemployment is on the rise again, and won't get down to Clinton levels until after Bush is out of office, the Republicans are constantly trying to change the constitution for their own good, and what exactly has the country given us?

A draft would be a terrible mistake.

George Bush has led to our downfall. Him, and the people who still support him.

[2smart4u]

And not one person has ever won on constitutional grounds because they have opposed a war. Not the Civil War, the two World Wars, Korea or Vietnam. Your statement is based solely on emotion.

Millions of men drafted and no one has prevailed constitutionally to not serve. But you say it is so.

Many have been exempted from fighting due to a "Conscientious Objection" status. But they were required to serve their mandated term. By the way, it is doubly difficult to be granted a Conscientious Objection status when one volunteers for service than it is when one is drafted.

If one volunteers for service, that's their problem. Anyone dumb enough to join the military with Bush in office had to expect to go to war.

Yes, I say it is unconstitutional. This is supposed to be a free country. People should not be forced to die and kill for no good reason.

[Nicola]

If one volunteers for service, that's their problem. Anyone dumb enough to join the military with Bush in office had to expect to go to war.

Yes, I say it is unconstitutional. This is supposed to be a free country. People should not be forced to die and kill for no good reason.

When you say: "This is supposed to be a free country." Which nations are we comparing? This is a free country! Have you not experienced a police state in your life? Many of the problems we have in this country are the result of having a free and open society. It is the price of freedom. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[2smart4u]

When you say: "This is supposed to be a free country." Which nations are we comparing? This is a free country! Have you not experienced a police state in your life? Many of the problems we have in this country are the result of having a free and open society. It is the price of freedom. I wouldn't have it any other way.

What is your point? I'm trying to figure out what it has to do with what i wrote.

[Roscoe_Beedle]

The very freedoms you grab onto, the rights you embrace and take for granted, were bought and paid for by the blood of the troops in our military. This Country was not enacted by a piece of paper, a gentlemen's agreement or a Constitution. All these things came AFTER we declared an independence and followed with a war. And then another....

And always we were defended by citizens who sacrificed their lives.

No piece of paper grants freedom. It's the force of the military estasblished by the people who INSURE our freedoms remain intact.

Both you and I were birthed after Hitler, Imperial Japan. Would our lives today have been different if we chose not to fight and destroy these two powers? Would the Constitution protect you if Hitler won and had atomic weapons?

Whatever you want to believe in your little World about the constitutionality of something you have such contempt for does not make it so.

[2smart4u]

"The very freedoms you grab onto, the rights you embrace and take for granted, were bought and paid for by the blood of the troops in our military."

Not our current military. That was decades ago.

"This Country was not enacted by a piece of paper, a gentlemen's agreement or a Constitution. All these things came AFTER we declared an independence and followed with a war. And then another...."

Your point?

"And always we were defended by citizens who sacrificed their lives."

Bully for them.

"No piece of paper grants freedom. It's the force of the military estasblished by the people who INSURE our freedoms remain intact."

Well, no. You're wrong.

"Both you and I were birthed after Hitler, Imperial Japan. Would our lives today have been different if we chose not to fight and destroy these two powers? Would the Constitution protect you if Hitler won and had atomic weapons?"

Lots of "ifs" there. I like to deal with reality, myself.

"Whatever you want to believe in your little World about the constitutionality of something you have such contempt for does not make it so."

You need to read that last sentence to yourself.

[Nicola]

"This is supposed to be a free country."
I was commenting on one of your sentences. Well is it a free country or not?
Why it is free is yet another subject we can discuss. But, one thing at a time.

[2smart4u]

"This is supposed to be a free country."
I was commenting on one of your sentences. Well is it a free country or not?
Why it is free is yet another subject we can discuss. But, one thing at a time.

It's not a free country if people are forced into servitude, now is it?

[Diamond Dog]

The United States is not a "free country." That kind of simplistic stuff is fed to us throughout grade school and even beyond, but the reality is, there is always a price to be part of our society, and in fact, in all societies.

This price comes in the form of taxation primarily. But from a non-financial cost, there is also the fact that we have to live with rules and laws that we as individuals may not agree with.



It's not a free country if people are forced into servitude, now is it?

[2smart4u]

The United States is not a "free country." That kind of simplistic stuff is fed to us throughout grade school and even beyond, but the reality is, there is always a price to be part of our society, and in fact, in all societies.

This price comes in the form of taxation primarily. But from a non-financial cost, there is also the fact that we have to live with rules and laws that we as individuals may not agree with.

So you are in favor of forced servitude?
I have no problem with laws and rules (unlike the smokers on the other threads), but I have a serious problem with forced military involvement.

[Roscoe_Beedle]

It is of no consequence that you "have a problem" with the draft. It is both constitutional and available given an appropriate national need.

Do you know of a Country that does not have a draft available to it? Given your very sensitive problem, you might not like any Country policies out there. Given your special needs.

[GHafez7]

The United States is not a "free country." That kind of simplistic stuff is fed to us throughout grade school and even beyond, but the reality is, there is always a price to be part of our society, and in fact, in all societies.

This price comes in the form of taxation primarily. But from a non-financial cost, there is also the fact that we have to live with rules and laws that we as individuals may not agree with.

Ok...maybe a better way to put it is "this is the most free country in the world." Sure...we have a price to pay for freedom as freedom is not free. Whether it be in taxes or in military service, we do owe our country something for the great economy we have and the rights and freedoms we have. People need to wake up and see that there are far worse places to live than the USA...they need to try living in the middle east. People are jailed for being homosexuals and forced into second class status because they weren't born male...

[Nicola]

Ok...maybe a better way to put it is "this is the most free country in the world." Sure...we have a price to pay for freedom as freedom is not free. Whether it be in taxes or in military service, we do owe our country something for the great economy we have and the rights and freedoms we have. People need to wake up and see that there are far worse places to live than the USA...they need to try living in the middle east. People are jailed for being homosexuals and forced into second class status because they weren't born male...
I think we agree on the a mandatory service, as a patriotic thing to do.
We can do this, it has been done before, but this time we can do it better. A great opportunity for young people to experience the world and a good primer before going to college.

[2smart4u]

"It is of no consequence that you "have a problem" with the draft. It is both constitutional and available given an appropriate national need."

There is no appropiate national need to force supposedly free people into servitude.

"Given your very sensitive problem, you might not like any Country policies out there. Given your special needs."

What the hell are you babbling about now???

[2smart4u]

"Ok...maybe a better way to put it is "this is the most free country in the world."

IS it?


"Sure...we have a price to pay for freedom as freedom is not free. Whether it be in taxes or in military service, we do owe our country something for the great economy we have and the rights and freedoms we have."

No we don't, and what great economy?


" People need to wake up and see that there are far worse places to live than the USA."

Like the places the USA invades for no reason. There are also better places to live.


"..they need to try living in the middle east. People are jailed for being homosexuals and forced into second class status because they weren't born male..."

And here they are second class citizens just for being homosexuals or minorities.

[2smart4u]

I think we agree on the a mandatory service, as a patriotic thing to do.
We can do this, it has been done before, but this time we can do it better. A great opportunity for young people to experience the world and a good primer before going to college.

The only way to do it better is to not do it at all.

[GHafez7]

I think we agree on the a mandatory service, as a patriotic thing to do.
We can do this, it has been done before, but this time we can do it better. A great opportunity for young people to experience the world and a good primer before going to college.

I think the best thing to do at this point in the country's history, is to institute mandatory military service. Far too many people think this country is "evil," and maybe having them serve it in a military capacity will help them see the truth. Also, the military service would serve another purpose and that's to teach young adults the meaning of the words duty, honor, and respect. Far too many young people, especially those currently of high school age think the world owes them something, not the other way around. This society has become too much of a "give me" country instead of a "what can I do for you" country. Military service epotimizes the "what can I do for you" ideal that we should all have.

[2smart4u]

"I think the best thing to do at this point in the country's history, is to institute mandatory military service."

Good thing no one with any power is asking for your advice.

" Far too many people think this country is "evil," and maybe having them serve it in a military capacity will help them see the truth."

This country is not evil, but the current administration certainly is.


"Also, the military service would serve another purpose and that's to teach young adults the meaning of the words duty, honor, and respect."

Is that why we read about all the murders, rapes, torture, drug use, and assorted bad behavior by our current military?


"Far too many young people, especially those currently of high school age think the world owes them something, not the other way around. This society has become too much of a "give me" country instead of a "what can I do for you" country."

Far too many older people feel the same way. They are called, "Republicans".


"Military service epotimizes the "what can I do for you" ideal that we should all have."

No it doesn't. What makes you think that?

[Nicola]

A vote:
1. We should have a mandatory non-military public service for all citizens in the US after reaching the age of 18.

2. We should have a mandatory non-military public service, with a choice for military service or public service.

3. We should have a military draft.

3. We should leave things just as they are.

[2smart4u]

A vote:
1. We should have a mandatory non-military public service for all citizens in the US after reaching the age of 18.

2. We should have a mandatory non-military public service, with a choice for military service or public service.

3. We should have a military draft.

3. We should leave things just as they are.

I vote for #4 (the second #3).

[GHafez7]

A vote:
1. We should have a mandatory non-military public service for all citizens in the US after reaching the age of 18.

2. We should have a mandatory non-military public service, with a choice for military service or public service.

3. We should have a military draft.

3. We should leave things just as they are.

# Four...it will teach people the meanings of the words duty, honor, and respect. As well as loyalty to one's country. And I said before, the military epitomizes the "what can I do" attitude this country was founded on instead of the "gimme gimme" attitude the liberals have foisted on society. It was JFK who said "ask not what this country can do for you, but what you can do for this country." And although he was a democrat, I couldn't agree with him more. Military service is the most honorable thing someone could do for their country. That however, is lost on some people who lurk here...

[2smart4u]

# Four...it will teach people the meanings of the words duty, honor, and respect. As well as loyalty to one's country. And I said before, the military epitomizes the "what can I do" attitude this country was founded on instead of the "gimme gimme" attitude the liberals have foisted on society. It was JFK who said "ask not what this country can do for you, but what you can do for this country." And although he was a democrat, I couldn't agree with him more. Military service is the most honorable thing someone could do for their country. That however, is lost on some people who lurk here...

So leaving things as they are will "teach people the meanings of the words duty, honor, and respect"? Cool, I chose number four, too.

You are sadly mistaken about which party has the "gimme gimme" attitude. That is the Republicans. Clearly.

"Military service is the most honorable thing someone could do for their country."

Well, no, it's not.

[GHafez7]

So leaving things as they are will "teach people the meanings of the words duty, honor, and respect"? Cool, I chose number four, too.

You are sadly mistaken about which party has the "gimme gimme" attitude. That is the Republicans. Clearly.

"Military service is the most honorable thing someone could do for their country."

Well, no, it's not.

The only response I will dignify you with is that you are a simpleton. You have made no proof of what you claim...graduate high school and college before you try to make arguments about things you know nothing of.

[2smart4u]

The only response I will dignify you with is that you are a simpleton. You have made no proof of what you claim...graduate high school and college before you try to make arguments about things you know nothing of.

Pretty funny, coming from a pre-schooler who knows nothing about anything.

[Diamond Dog]

You two are funny. For a couple of folks who keep saying they won't address each other any more, you keep coming back.

You know you enjoy the bantering even if it's inane and immature and often idiotic.

[2smart4u]

You two are funny. For a couple of folks who keep saying they won't address each other any more, you keep coming back.

You know you enjoy the bantering even if it's inane and immature and often idiotic.

Did I say I wouldn't address him/her/it anymore? I don't recall.
But it's fun helping them make a fool of themselves.

[Nicola]

Everyone jumping on the bandwagon about how good and how brave and how fantastic our troops are who are fighting and dying in Iraq, but nobody wants to be drafted for this, the highest, and most noble service a person can contribute to the protection of one's country. Why then don't we just hire a mercenary army? This can become a thriving business opportunity for the US. Rent–a-Army. Illegals in the country would be given a choice to be deported to their home country or be inducted into the Rent-a-Army organization, and receive the US citizenship after a 6 year stint.

[Roscoe_Beedle]

We have plenty of good solid enlistees. And people continue to enlist. When you say "nobody" it's a myth.
The defense of our own Country is fairly well known. Just One of our stealth submarines could easily take out all of Europe not to mention any region of the World that declares any hostility to our survival. And we have many of these submarines patrolling the oceans of the World.

This Iraq situation has been fought along the lines of a guerilla type war. One that requires the most vulnerable part of our military, the foot soldier. It may not be too long before we have a proper response to even this type of labor intensive response.

But really, don't lose any sleep believing the anti-military types who will convince you that we have no one manning the store.

[Nicola]

Let's try, Civilian Public Service.
Anyone interested in this concept?
I'm amazed how many people believe that a required public service of some sort, for the good of the country, and the real world education of young people, think it is an infringement of their freedom.

[2smart4u]

Everyone jumping on the bandwagon about how good and how brave and how fantastic our troops are who are fighting and dying in Iraq, but nobody wants to be drafted for this, the highest, and most noble service a person can contribute to the protection of one's country. Why then don't we just hire a mercenary army? This can become a thriving business opportunity for the US. Rent–a-Army. Illegals in the country would be given a choice to be deported to their home country or be inducted into the Rent-a-Army organization, and receive the US citizenship after a 6 year stint.

You won't see me on that bandwagon. I talked to a Marine recently, who was about to go back to Iraq for the 3rd time. Why? "I love it". They get big paychecks, and there's fastfood joints on every base (and they get to kill people). Sounds to me like we already have a mercenary military.

If we were fighting a just war, or if we were fighting against people who had attacked America, and they actually were defending America, it might be a different story. But they are over there, fighting an illegal and unnecessary war, and leaving America more unprotected than ever.

[2smart4u]

Let's try, Civilian Public Service.
Anyone interested in this concept?
I'm amazed how many people believe that a required public service of some sort, for the good of the country, and the real world education of young people, think it is an infringement of their freedom.

But it is just that. Will the people who perform this "Civilian Public Service" not have to pay taxes? Will they be paid as well as they would be in the real world? Will there be a guarantee of no forced military service? Sorry, but this concept has too many holes in it.

[Nicola]

But it is just that. Will the people who perform this "Civilian Public Service" not have to pay taxes? Will they be paid as well as they would be in the real world? Will there be a guarantee of no forced military service? Sorry, but this concept has too many holes in it.

I was paid and housed when I served this country. At eighteen there are never too many pressing bills to pay, so the pay was reasonable. Also I could buy things in the PX without tax. I was well fed, well conditioned and exercised and well clothed. I was afforded vacations, all medical needs were taken care of. After my service I was offered support to go to college and aided financially to purchase my first home. I learned a trade and was able to be employed in the private sector and made decent living.
The experience also taught me to be self sufficient, independent and confident. I earned presidential accommodations for my achievements. I was respected by my peers and appreciated the amazing things that can be achieved in an organization that stresses discipline and cooperation. I made life-long friends. Many people hold me high esteem for having rendered my service to the country in an honorable fashion.
All this happened to me, a school dropout immigrant.
I am reiterating! Civilian Public Service.

[2smart4u]

I was paid and housed when I served this country. At eighteen there are never too many pressing bills to pay, so the pay was reasonable. Also I could buy things in the PX without tax. I was well fed, well conditioned and exercised and well clothed. I was afforded vacations, all medical needs were taken care of. After my service I was offered support to go to college and aided financially to purchase my first home. I learned a trade and was able to be employed in the private sector and made decent living.
The experience also taught me to be self sufficient, independent and confident. I earned presidential accommodations for my achievements. I was respected by my peers and appreciated the amazing things that can be achieved in an organization that stresses discipline and cooperation. I made life-long friends. Many people hold me high esteem for having rendered my service to the country in an honorable fashion.
All this happened to me, a school dropout immigrant.
I am reiterating! Civilian Public Service.

A bad idea.

[Nicola]

Do you regret your service in the Armed Forces of America?
What is your worst regret?
What were the best lessons learned?
I ask these questions because many people who have not served in the Military are very dead-set against any form of military duty. What did you think about the draft when it was law?