Tax exemptions

[Nicola]

Do you think all religious organizations in the US should pay their fair share of taxes?

[PayTheMan]

Everyone should pay their fair share of taxes.

[GHafez7]

Do you think all religious organizations in the US should pay their fair share of taxes?

No, they are a non-profit orgainzation and are therefore exempt from paying taxes...just like the ACLU...

[Roscoe_Beedle]

Religious organizations survive on their donors. Some, like the Catholic Church, operates numerous charity relief programs for the poor. You want to tax that away and give it to idiot government? But Nicola you showed your hand - you mentioned "fair share". In the eyes of government types and people getting other peoples hard earned money no one is paying their fair share. Screw em. The less to the government the better.

[PayTheMan]

Good points Roscoe.

[Nicola]

Religious organizations survive on their donors. Some, like the Catholic Church, operates numerous charity relief programs for the poor. You want to tax that away and give it to idiot government? But Nicola you showed your hand - you mentioned "fair share". In the eyes of government types and people getting other peoples hard earned money no one is paying their fair share. Screw em. The less to the government the better.

The reason I asked this question is due to the extreme political influence religious organizations have on this administration. This is due in most part because Bush is an Idiot and he has supported antiquated religious dogma. I am for seperation of church and state. I don't think a elected official should ever invoke God into his retoric. I don't care what religion elected officials are, that is there business, but when they mix their religious beliefs with public policies they are out of order.

[GHafez7]

The reason I asked this question is due to the extreme political influence religious organizations have on this administration. This is due in most part because Bush is an Idiot and he has supported antiquated religious dogma. I am for seperation of church and state. I don't think a elected official should ever invoke God into his retoric. I don't care what religion elected officials are, that is there business, but when they mix their religious beliefs with public policies they are out of order.

So, since you're arguement seems to be that you don't like the undue political influence that religious orginzations have on the administration, you would take the same position towards Labor Unions and the undue political influence they have on democrat administrations then?

[Roscoe_Beedle]

"...So help me God." This is the statement EVERY President makes when being sworn into office by the Chief Justice. Our Declaration of Independence is replete with reference to God. Seems to me your hatred of Pres. Bush is the active ingredient here.
Funny how your original comment was tax exemption of Churches. Then you morphed into an anti-Bush bore.

[jonvn]

Actually, the Declaration of Independence refers to a creator. Not god.

"So help me God" is a tradtional ending, it is not written into the Constitution at all.

[GHafez7]

Actually, the Declaration of Independence refers to a creator. Not god.

"So help me God" is a tradtional ending, it is not written into the Constitution at all.

And just which creator do you think Jefferson was referring to? In the late 1700s America was a very Christian country with the vast vast majority being Chrisitian...any reference to a creator would have immediately been recognized as God. Although the founding fathers were hesitant to label themselves as Christians, they were Diests and still had a very spiritual ideology and were very clost to their creator. Stop trying to rewrite history by trying to allude that the country does not have a Judeo-Christian heritage and that the founders were Athiests...they were the farthest thing from

[Nicola]

So, since you're arguement seems to be that you don't like the undue political influence that religious orginzations have on the administration, you would take the same position towards Labor Unions and the undue political influence they have on democrat administrations then?

Labor unions best days are done. They were once the only spokesperson for workers during a time of very unfair business practices. I don't like unions. But one thing at a time. Religious organizations are exclusive to it's membership and their narrow belief system. Abortion, family planning, birth control, homosexuality, unequal status of women, (even with in the church itself) are all topics that make them very unattractive to me.

[Nicola]

"...So help me God." This is the statement EVERY President makes when being sworn into office by the Chief Justice. Our Declaration of Independence is replete with reference to God. Seems to me your hatred of Pres. Bush is the active ingredient here.
Funny how your original comment was tax exemption of Churches. Then you morphed into an anti-Bush bore.

The reason Bush came up is because he is one of the people who committ terrible injustices to people who have differing beliefs. I'll just mention one group, Gays. I don't trust any person who thinks he/she knows what God's plan or opinion is, and I get quite bothered by him invoking God into his political messages.

[Roscoe_Beedle]

No, you just hate Bush.
Honest people will disagree on many topics. But then you get zealots. If you disagree with a zealot you are hateful. Now you bring up Gays and Bush. Yes, the President does not favor gay marriage. But think about that a minute. Name one Country that does. In the entire World. But it is Bush we must condemn for his decision? You, Nicola, are an immigrant, no? What about your wonderful Country? What is the procedure for Gays to get married in your former Country Nicola? Enlighten us with your experience.

[jonvn]

Actually, there are a few countries. Canada, Spain, Netherlands, Belgium....

[Nicola]

No, you just hate Bush.
Honest people will disagree on many topics. But then you get zealots. If you disagree with a zealot you are hateful. Now you bring up Gays and Bush. Yes, the President does not favor gay marriage. But think about that a minute. Name one Country that does. In the entire World. But it is Bush we must condemn for his decision? You, Nicola, are an immigrant, no? What about your wonderful Country? What is the procedure for Gays to get married in your former Country Nicola? Enlighten us with your experience.

I am from Germany. Born in the war. Father married a Jew in 1939. Need I say more. Therefore, I strongly resist any state sponsored prejudice against anyone. I love this country for the what the founding fathers put forth. And even they didn't get it all right. But we, not the government, we the people, have made tremendous advances in addressing racism and homophobia. I don't care what the other countries do, I care what WE do. We are the model for the rest of the world, because there has never been a country built on freedom and the pursuit of happiness like the America.

About gays, they don't give a hoot about getting married. They simply want the same rights as married straight couples. Marriage is a civil contract between two humans. Please don't say "Adam and Steve." They have family values, they come from heterosexual families, they may want to adopt children, bequeath property, investments or personal belongings to their partners, or join the military.

[Diamond Dog]

And just which creator do you think Jefferson was referring to? In the late 1700s America was a very Christian country with the vast vast majority being Chrisitian...any reference to a creator would have immediately been recognized as God. Although the founding fathers were hesitant to label themselves as Christians, they were Diests and still had a very spiritual ideology and were very clost to their creator. Stop trying to rewrite history by trying to allude that the country does not have a Judeo-Christian heritage and that the founders were Athiests...they were the farthest thing from

You're absolutely correct: The founding fathers were definitely Deists.
http://www.deism.com/deism_defined.htm

Deism is defined in Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1941, as: "[From Latin Deus, God.Deity] The doctrine or creed of a Deist." And Deist is defined in the same dictionary as: "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason."

Do you understand the difference between the definition of Deism and the philosophy espoused by Crusader George W., a man who has been quoted saying:

"I believe that God wants me to be president."
"We need common-sense judges who understand our rights were derived from God."
"May He guide us now. And may God continue to bless the United States of America.
"I really appreciate leaders from around the globe who have come to share in prayer with us today. It reminds me that the Almighty God is a God to everybody, every person."
"I ask Americans to bow our heads in humility before our Heavenly Father, a God who calls us not to judge our neighbors, but to love them, to ask His guidance upon our nation and its leaders in every level of government."

This is a man who thinks the universe was created in six days. That evolution is not true. That stem cells have human rights. I mean come on. To compare Bush's brand of religion pandering to the Deism of Thomas Jefferson is a leap of faith bigger than even a religious man could take.

[Roscoe_Beedle]

Well thanks Jovn, I learned something here. Those countries. But my premise remains intact, we judge ourselves a tad hard when we see the reality in this world. 50 years ago NO ONE spoke of gay marriage. Even ten years ago.
And gays do have equal civil rights. Marriage is not a civil right. Many choose not to marry, some have been married. I don't care if they marry or not actually. I just think it strange how the "hate Police" have chosen this as a weapon.

[Nicola]

Well thanks Jovn, I learned something here. Those countries. But my premise remains intact, we judge ourselves a tad hard when we see the reality in this world. 50 years ago NO ONE spoke of gay marriage. Even ten years ago.
And gays do have equal civil rights. Marriage is not a civil right. Many choose not to marry, some have been married. I don't care if they marry or not actually. I just think it strange how the "hate Police" have chosen this as a weapon.
Roscoe, you are in a rut. No need to speask to you anymore on this topic.

[Nicola]

You're absolutely correct: The founding fathers were definitely Deists.
http://www.deism.com/deism_defined.htm

Deism is defined in Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1941, as: "[From Latin Deus, God.Deity] The doctrine or creed of a Deist." And Deist is defined in the same dictionary as: "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason."

Do you understand the difference between the definition of Deism and the philosophy espoused by Crusader George W., a man who has been quoted saying:

"I believe that God wants me to be president."
"We need common-sense judges who understand our rights were derived from God."
"May He guide us now. And may God continue to bless the United States of America.
"I really appreciate leaders from around the globe who have come to share in prayer with us today. It reminds me that the Almighty God is a God to everybody, every person."
"I ask Americans to bow our heads in humility before our Heavenly Father, a God who calls us not to judge our neighbors, but to love them, to ask His guidance upon our nation and its leaders in every level of government."

This is a man who thinks the universe was created in six days. That evolution is not true. That stem cells have human rights. I mean come on. To compare Bush's brand of religion pandering to the Deism of Thomas Jefferson is a leap of faith bigger than even a religious man could take.

Thank you for your logic

[GHafez7]

You're absolutely correct: The founding fathers were definitely Deists.
http://www.deism.com/deism_defined.htm

Deism is defined in Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1941, as: "[From Latin Deus, God.Deity] The doctrine or creed of a Deist." And Deist is defined in the same dictionary as: "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason."

Do you understand the difference between the definition of Deism and the philosophy espoused by Crusader George W., a man who has been quoted saying:

"I believe that God wants me to be president."
"We need common-sense judges who understand our rights were derived from God."
"May He guide us now. And may God continue to bless the United States of America.
"I really appreciate leaders from around the globe who have come to share in prayer with us today. It reminds me that the Almighty God is a God to everybody, every person."
"I ask Americans to bow our heads in humility before our Heavenly Father, a God who calls us not to judge our neighbors, but to love them, to ask His guidance upon our nation and its leaders in every level of government."

This is a man who thinks the universe was created in six days. That evolution is not true. That stem cells have human rights. I mean come on. To compare Bush's brand of religion pandering to the Deism of Thomas Jefferson is a leap of faith bigger than even a religious man could take.


Funny how you cry about the beliefs of the president. Do I hear you crying about the beliefs of Isalmofascits? Nope, but since the president is a Christian for you lieberals he's fair game. I don't a hoot what the president says, I'm just glad he is comfortable in his beliefs and lets them be known. We need MORE leaders like him, not less. As far as the Crusader reference...I could only wish this was a crusades. I bet you are so ingrained in your lieberal ideology that you don't even realize that the crusades were a DEFENSIVE was against mulism invaders into the holy land...invaders who made people convert at the point of a sword. Wise up sir....lest you let your ignorance come out more.

[Diamond Dog]

Ghafez, all I was doing was shattering your unreasonable, uneducated response to Nicola about the deism of the founding fathers. Now you make yet another silly argument about the history of the Crusades. This time I won't even bother with correcting you.


Your chip on the shoulder about the moslem faith has no consequence to me. Frankly, I have just as much issue with their extremists as I do the Orthodox Jews and the fundamentalists. And you. Get some help for your bitterness.





Funny how you cry about the beliefs of the president. Do I hear you crying about the beliefs of Isalmofascits? Nope, but since the president is a Christian for you lieberals he's fair game. I don't a hoot what the president says, I'm just glad he is comfortable in his beliefs and lets them be known. We need MORE leaders like him, not less. As far as the Crusader reference...I could only wish this was a crusades. I bet you are so ingrained in your lieberal ideology that you don't even realize that the crusades were a DEFENSIVE was against mulism invaders into the holy land...invaders who made people convert at the point of a sword. Wise up sir....lest you let your ignorance come out more.

[Roscoe_Beedle]

How can you equate moral relevance with Islamic Fascists that want to KILL you with Orthodox Jews and Christian Fundamentalists? Are you that diseased to see the same? Ask the World where the real threat is hombre. It's the middle east muslims spreading terror not the other two groups.

[GHafez7]

Ghafez, all I was doing was shattering your unreasonable, uneducated response to Nicola about the deism of the founding fathers. Now you make yet another silly argument about the history of the Crusades. This time I won't even bother with correcting you.


Your chip on the shoulder about the moslem faith has no consequence to me. Frankly, I have just as much issue with their extremists as I do the Orthodox Jews and the fundamentalists. And you. Get some help for your bitterness.

You cannot correct me about the Crusades because you know I am right. They were a defensive war to free the Holy Land from the muslim invaders. Even an 8th grader with a rudimentary knowledge of history could tell you that. My bitterness against islam and their defenders come from being raised in a middle eastern Christian family. If you knew half the reality of what islam is really like you'd have a different oppinion as well. But..keep your eyes closed to the truth...blame the "zionists" for everything....there are people willing to defend our freedom.

[GHafez7]

How can you equate moral relevance with Islamic Fascists that want to KILL you with Orthodox Jews and Christian Fundamentalists? Are you that diseased to see the same? Ask the World where the real threat is hombre. It's the middle east muslims spreading terror not the other two groups.

What do you expect from someone with the mentality of most of the citizens of the bay area? They are blind to the real issues. They think we need to "understand" the islamic fascists instead of unleash a war of extremism like that which they have unleashed on us. If Bush wasn't such a panderer to that mentality, the war in Iraq and Afghanistan would be going very differently..we wouldn't have as many soldiers dieing as we do. Its the fault of the lieberals and their idea of a "sensitive" war that have caused us such problems. Why should we care what the muslim community thinks? Did they care on 9/11? Did they care in the original WTC bombings in 1993? The Cole? The Khobar Towers? The Sudan? The answer is a big fat NO! And that should be our attitude as well. Abu Gharib, Gitmo...why do they care so much how we treat TERRORISTS?

[Nicola]

What do you expect from someone with the mentality of most of the citizens of the bay area? They are blind to the real issues. They think we need to "understand" the islamic fascists instead of unleash a war of extremism like that which they have unleashed on us. If Bush wasn't such a panderer to that mentality, the war in Iraq and Afghanistan would be going very differently..we wouldn't have as many soldiers dieing as we do. Its the fault of the lieberals and their idea of a "sensitive" war that have caused us such problems. Why should we care what the muslim community thinks? Did they care on 9/11? Did they care in the original WTC bombings in 1993? The Cole? The Khobar Towers? The Sudan? The answer is a big fat NO! And that should be our attitude as well. Abu Gharib, Gitmo...why do they care so much how we treat TERRORISTS?
Closed minds, fear driven religious convictions, ethnocentricity, egocentricity, intolerance, knowitalls, power-mongers are the reason we are still fighting in the middle east for over 2000 years. We are not talking about muslims or christians or arabs or blacks or white or chinese, we're talking about extremists. The rest of us are all peace loving people who are willing to keep an open mind and ready to alter our thinking when needed. Nothing wrong with Islam or Christianity or Buddhism, its only the zealots that we are addressing here.

[Roscoe_Beedle]

Wow. You sound exactly like the President. And he is committed to getting those same extremists you mention. I am happy to read that you were in favor of clearing out Afghanistan and also cutting down Al-Zarqawi. See, we can agree afterall.

[Nicola]

Wow. You sound exactly like the President. And he is committed to getting those same extremists you mention. I am happy to read that you were in favor of clearing out Afghanistan and also cutting down Al-Zarqawi. See, we can agree afterall.

But I don't want the innocents killed. I understand Guerilla warefare, I was in Vietnam, the enemy doesn't line up in uniforms, in division of mechanized units, he/she is the the ordinary person walking down the street during the day and snipes you at night. I think we need a different approach to fighting terrorists and it's not with bombing raid over cities. We must infiltrate them, use small units of special agents to assasinate individuals responsible for terror. All done on the OT. The more bombs we drop the stronger they get.

[jonvn]

And just which creator do you think Jefferson was referring to?

Actualy, he was a deist. The word "Creator" and such are typical terms you find in deist writings.

Stop trying to rewrite history by trying to allude that the country does not have a Judeo-Christian heritage and that the founders were Athiests...they were the farthest thing from

I did not say they were athiests, but if you look at what they did say about religion and government, you'd know that our government was not founded on religion at all, and that the people who started it wanted a strict separation.

And as you can see in the mideast with government infused with religion, and how that operates, they made a very wise choice.

[jonvn]

Here are some quotes:

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.

Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.

I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible).

Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible).

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.


Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence, and was the third President. John Adams was the second President. James Madison, the fourth, and is known as the Father of the Constitution, because he is cheifly credited with its creation.

P.S., While the above gentlemen did POST these things, they did it elsewhere, and not on this board, owing to the fact that they are now somewhat dead.

[GHafez7]

Here are some quotes:














Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence, and was the third President. John Adams was the second President. James Madison, the fourth, and is known as the Father of the Constitution, because he is cheifly credited with its creation.

P.S., While the above gentlemen did POST these things, they did it elsewhere, and not on this board, owing to the fact that they are now somewhat dead.

Wow Jon! You proved only that you can google some quotes from SOME of the Founding Fathers. Lets see what some of the other founders had to say such as George Washington our First President, Samuel Adams the "father of the American Revolution" and others shall we?

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”-George Washington

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."-George Washington

"The right to freedom being the gift of the Almighty...The rights of the colonists as Christians...may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutions of The Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament"-Sam Adams "Father of the American Revolution"

" Principally, and first of all, I resign my soul to the Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying on the merits of Jesus Christ for the pardon of my sins."-Sam Adams

"I now offer you the outline of the plan they have suggested. Let an association be formed to be denominated 'The Christian Constitutional Society,' its object to be first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States."-Alexander Hamilton

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests."-Alexander Hamilton

So you see...although some of the Founders were not outright Christians...others were. And like it or not this country is largely widely recognized to have been founded upon JUDEO-CHRISTIAN principles.

[Nicola]

I like sticking to the numbers, like the Golden Ratio, or 3.14. Infinity is a hard term to understand for the human mind and a supreme being is a similar concept. So, when making political or business or social decisions that affect the lives of so many, shouldn't we stick to what we perceive as understandable and quantifiable. Don't we put money in a bank with hopes of growth based on quantifiable and even predictable results, or do we bank on faith?

[Roscoe_Beedle]

The point you are missing, Nicola, is that even though we all believe in a firm separation of Church and State most of us also believe religion is not necessarily an irrelevance. Take China, a place where religion is illegal. You have your basic soleless society. People are much more fulfilled when they can also have faith is something greater than themselves. You simply cannot legislate morality with law alone.

Now you, with your pronouncements of intolerance to faith and those that have a belief, fall into a rather dull predictable category. Those that have faith in institutions alone. I have always said I would rather have an adversary who has respect for faith then an adversary who has only respect for his law. We have seen these people before, the Hitlers, the Stalins, Pol Pot etc.

Our wonderful country was founded by men steeped in faith. And these same men found it within themselves to respect a separation so that all may flourish. Try that with a codified, dismal, society based on law alone.

Lighten up. We have room for those like you.

[Nicola]

The point you are missing, Nicola, is that even though we all believe in a firm separation of Church and State most of us also believe religion is not necessarily an irrelevance. Take China, a place where religion is illegal. You have your basic soleless society. People are much more fulfilled when they can also have faith is something greater than themselves. You simply cannot legislate morality with law alone.

Now you, with your pronouncements of intolerance to faith and those that have a belief, fall into a rather dull predictable category. Those that have faith in institutions alone. I have always said I would rather have an adversary who has respect for faith then an adversary who has only respect for his law. We have seen these people before, the Hitlers, the Stalins, Pol Pot etc.

Our wonderful country was founded by men steeped in faith. And these same men found it within themselves to respect a separation so that all may flourish. Try that with a codified, dismal, society based on law alone.

Lighten up. We have room for those like you.

I never said religion is irrelevant, nor do I believe it to be so. I simply state that it has no place in the political arena. It is born of innate human curiosity to seek the answer to our existence. We all share this. But let's leave it out of politics and policies. We all hope that the creator is benevolent. We don't know this for certain but have faith that it is so. And when we suffer pain and fear we turn to the only thing larger than our fear for a benevolent arbiter.
I fear any person who claims he has more information about this benevolent creator than I have. (The Lord cannot be petitioned)

[Roscoe_Beedle]

And on that point, Mr. Nicola, we agree. I also dislike the preacher-type who holds his religion above all else. Freedom can be a real bitch for these types.